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Anattā - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Anattā

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

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Element

Re: Anattā

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:59 am


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kc2dpt
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Re: Anattā

Postby kc2dpt » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:21 am

- Peter


Element

Re: Anattā

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 1:40 am


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Re: Anattā

Postby clw_uk » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:09 am

Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Anattā

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:16 am

Dear Retro,

Please don't be offended by what I am about to say. Please consider it a friendly inquiry.

I think that to vehemntly insist on not-self similar to insisting upon a self. I mean the soul-ish sort of self. So you and I see eye to eye in that regard.

But in reading what you've written in this thread, your position is starting to resemble solipsism or materialism to me. If we deny that anything outside of our own mind-experience and afflicted aggregates can possibly exist, how are we not leading into these other views?

Thank you kindly :namaste:
Drolma


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retrofuturist
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Re: Anattā

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Anattā

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:31 am

Understood, Retro. Thanks :smile:

Best wishes,
Drolma


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AdvaitaJ
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Re: Anattā

Postby AdvaitaJ » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:23 am

I've had the interesting experience of just finishing Ajahn Brahm's book, "Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond" and Bhikku Bodhi's lengthy introduction to chapter nine of "In the Buddha's Words". For both, though, the concept of anatta is tightly intertwined with NIbbana.

Ajahn Brahm makes clear that 1) Physical death after attainment of Nibbana is the end. Period. and 2) the cessation of Nibbana is not to be feared because there is no atta, "I", "self" or whatever that ceases. He also makes the very interesting statement repeatedly that attainment of jhana is necessary for most everyone to realize for themselves the truth of anatta. It certainly has me motivated. Beliefs are easy to come by, realization is tough.

Bhikku Bodhi, on the other hand, certainly mirrored many of the things that Ajahn Brahm has stated and it is certainly easy to see how Ajahn Brahm drew his conclusions. However, Bhikku Bodhi has just left open a few tantalizing hints that Nibbana may transcend the whole discussion by leading to a "state" where none of the yardsticks we use even apply, "Freed from reckoning in terms of the five aggregates, the Tathagata transcends our understanding."

Disclaimer: With less than a year's practice behind me, I certainly have no preference for one or the other nor do I see any need to set one against or above the other. I've derived great benefit from both and have nowhere near enough wisdom to even know if they agree or disagree! :reading:

Regards: AdvaitaJ
The birds have vanished down the sky. Now the last cloud drains away.
We sit together, the mountain and me, until only the mountain remains.
Li Bai

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Dhammanando
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Re: Anattā

Postby Dhammanando » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:11 am


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Re: Anattā

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:17 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Will
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Re: two truths

Postby Will » Sun Feb 01, 2009 5:58 am

Last edited by Will on Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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Re: Anattā

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:01 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Dhammanando
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Re: Anattā

Postby Dhammanando » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:22 am


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Re: Anattā

Postby Dhammanando » Sun Feb 01, 2009 6:44 am


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Re: Anattā

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:11 am

Greetings bhante,

Does reality (dhamma) in this case refer to a phenomenological reality or ontological reality?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Jechbi
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Re: Anattā

Postby Jechbi » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:36 am

Seems like we just end up with the same basic either/or choice. The idea of "phenomenological reality" relates to the self. The idea of "ontological reality" takes self out of the equation (but you still need to understand the notion of self to understand why ontological is ontological and not phenomenological).
So aren't both ideas still bound to the notion of self?

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Re: Anattā

Postby Dhammanando » Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:56 am


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Re: Anattā

Postby Dhammanando » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:11 am


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Re: Anattā

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Feb 01, 2009 8:18 am

Greetings,

Just for clarification, when I said phenomenological earlier, I was referring to it in the following sense.

phenomenology
1. A philosophy or method of inquiry based on the premise that reality consists of objects and events as they are perceived or understood in human consciousness and not of anything independent of human consciousness.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/phenomenology

The argument I was making earlier was that if something cannot be verified phenomenologically, it is not thereby disproved ontologically.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Will
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Re: Anattā

Postby Will » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:56 pm

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25


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