Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

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Re: Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

Postby Virgo » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:11 am

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Re: Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

Postby Mr. G » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:14 am

Yes, I agree. Especially upon the reliance of the Guru. I remember when I was in Barcelona in 2006 for Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's retreat and he stressed how Guru Yoga was most important. It was a once in a life time opportunity to study with a modern day master. :namaste:
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Re: Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

Postby Virgo » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:18 am

mr. gordo wrote:Yes, I agree. Especially upon the reliance of the Guru. I remember when I was in Barcelona in 2006 for Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche's retreat and he stressed how Guru Yoga was most important. It was a once in a life time opportunity to study with a modern day master. :namaste:

Absolutely. The Guru is the heart of the path.

I am glad to hear that you made such a great connection. It is an amazing world we live in.

With maitri,

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Re: Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

Postby Buddhanataka » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:30 am

Virgo wrote:That and relying on the Guru should get the job done.


What do you mean by, "get the job done"? Do you mean transcend the six bardos, realize the Dharmakaya, master the primordial awareness that never changes by dwelling in the bliss of the Sambhogakaya in the highest heaven Akanishtha, attain perfect enlightenment, master the 10 Bodhisattva stages and the six stages above those, master the vidyadhara level, attain the 8 mundane siddhis and the transcendent siddhis of aryas, be able to take rebirth in emanations in order to help sentient beings expediently and ensure the lineage of genuine Tulkus (nirmanakayas) does not die out, master the various sadhanas of the wrathful deities and Dharma protectors as Heruka and Hayagriva, be able to teach the whole doctrine to sentient beings according to their propensities, attain the forebearance to dwell in the uninterrupted hell of Avici for 100,000 kalpas in order to save a single being, and all the while never be separated from the indescribable bliss of the authentic state, attain the omniscient knowledge of Buddhas, be able to refute rival doctrines eloquently and compose succint and brilliant treatises on the supreme teachings, realize the ground-of-all mind, be able to converse with dakinis and yakshas and other supernatural beings, be able to see hidden termas and so on, be able to protect the doctrine, be able to succour evil beings who harm the teaching and sentient beings, obtain the 32 marks of a great man and the 80 minor marks of a great man, the 18 unique qualities of a Buddha, the 8 liberations, the 10 all-surpassing realizations, master the 5 worldly topics of knowledge, be able to move through the 4 dhyanas and 4 formless attainments in normal and reverse order, in a single flash of thought to comprehend and know intuitively and precisely the thoughts of each and every sentient being in all world systems through the three periods of time, to be able to perform supernatural miracles as the vidyadhara bodhisattva Vimalakirti in order to banish the doubts of sentient beings and convert them to the true teaching, to be able to engage in the grand discussions on the Dharma with the great spiritual heroes as Manjushri and Maitreya, and Avalokiteshvara, to master the 4 branches of specialized knowledge, the 4 means of attracting disciples and so on, in a word all the infinite and ineffable powers and knowledge of Tathagatas summarised in the 10 powers of those with the 10 powers, and in other words and be able to benefit both oneself and others by having attained the nonabiding nirvana but still dwelling in samsara for a kalpa or less than a kalpa for the happiness and well-being of all beings...
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Re: Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

Postby Virgo » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:37 am

Buddhanataka wrote:
Virgo wrote:That and relying on the Guru should get the job done.


What do you mean by, "get the job done"? Do you mean transcend the six bardos, realize the Dharmakaya, master the primordial awareness that never changes by dwelling in the bliss of the Sambhogakaya in the highest heaven Akanishtha, attain perfect enlightenment, master the 10 Bodhisattva stages and the six stages above those, master the vidyadhara level, attain the 8 mundane siddhis and the transcendent siddhis of aryas, be able to take rebirth in emanations in order to help sentient beings expediently and ensure the lineage of genuine Tulkus (nirmanakayas) does not die out, master the various sadhanas of the wrathful deities and Dharma protectors as Heruka and Hayagriva, be able to teach the whole doctrine to sentient beings according to their propensities, attain the forebearance to dwell in the uninterrupted hell of Avici for 100,000 kalpas in order to save a single being, and all the while never be separated from the indescribable bliss of the authentic state, attain the omniscient knowledge of Buddhas, be able to refute rival doctrines eloquently and compose succint and brilliant treatises on the supreme teachings, realize the ground-of-all mind, be able to converse with dakinis and yakshas and other supernatural beings, be able to see hidden termas and so on, be able to protect the doctrine, be able to succour evil beings who harm the teaching and sentient beings, obtain the 32 marks of a great man and the 80 minor marks of a great man, the 18 unique qualities of a Buddha, the 8 liberations, the 10 all-surpassing realizations, master the 5 worldly topics of knowledge, be able to move through the 4 dhyanas and 4 formless attainments in normal and reverse order, in a single flash of thought to comprehend and know intuitively and precisely the thoughts of each and every sentient being in all world systems through the three periods of time, to be able to perform supernatural miracles as the vidyadhara bodhisattva Vimalakirti in order to banish the doubts of sentient beings and convert them to the true teaching, to be able to engage in the grand discussions on the Dharma with the great spiritual heroes as Manjushri and Maitreya, and Avalokiteshvara, to master the 4 branches of specialized knowledge, the 4 means of attracting disciples and so on, in a word all the infinite and ineffable powers and knowledge of Tathagatas summarised in the 10 powers of those with the 10 powers, and in other words and be able to benefit both oneself and others by having attained the nonabiding nirvana but still dwelling in samsara for a kalpa or less than a kalpa for the happiness and well-being of all beings...


Yes.

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Re: Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

Postby muni » Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:48 am

Fortune of karma, devotion.
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Re: Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

Postby Mr. G » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:11 pm

Virgo wrote:
Buddhanataka wrote:
Virgo wrote:That and relying on the Guru should get the job done.


What do you mean by, "get the job done"? Do you mean transcend the six bardos, realize the Dharmakaya, master the primordial awareness that never changes by dwelling in the bliss of the Sambhogakaya in the highest heaven Akanishtha, attain perfect enlightenment, master the 10 Bodhisattva stages and the six stages above those, master the vidyadhara level, attain the 8 mundane siddhis and the transcendent siddhis of aryas, be able to take rebirth in emanations in order to help sentient beings expediently and ensure the lineage of genuine Tulkus (nirmanakayas) does not die out, master the various sadhanas of the wrathful deities and Dharma protectors as Heruka and Hayagriva, be able to teach the whole doctrine to sentient beings according to their propensities, attain the forebearance to dwell in the uninterrupted hell of Avici for 100,000 kalpas in order to save a single being, and all the while never be separated from the indescribable bliss of the authentic state, attain the omniscient knowledge of Buddhas, be able to refute rival doctrines eloquently and compose succint and brilliant treatises on the supreme teachings, realize the ground-of-all mind, be able to converse with dakinis and yakshas and other supernatural beings, be able to see hidden termas and so on, be able to protect the doctrine, be able to succour evil beings who harm the teaching and sentient beings, obtain the 32 marks of a great man and the 80 minor marks of a great man, the 18 unique qualities of a Buddha, the 8 liberations, the 10 all-surpassing realizations, master the 5 worldly topics of knowledge, be able to move through the 4 dhyanas and 4 formless attainments in normal and reverse order, in a single flash of thought to comprehend and know intuitively and precisely the thoughts of each and every sentient being in all world systems through the three periods of time, to be able to perform supernatural miracles as the vidyadhara bodhisattva Vimalakirti in order to banish the doubts of sentient beings and convert them to the true teaching, to be able to engage in the grand discussions on the Dharma with the great spiritual heroes as Manjushri and Maitreya, and Avalokiteshvara, to master the 4 branches of specialized knowledge, the 4 means of attracting disciples and so on, in a word all the infinite and ineffable powers and knowledge of Tathagatas summarised in the 10 powers of those with the 10 powers, and in other words and be able to benefit both oneself and others by having attained the nonabiding nirvana but still dwelling in samsara for a kalpa or less than a kalpa for the happiness and well-being of all beings...


Yes.

Virgo


lol...Virgo stole my answer
    How foolish you are,
    grasping the letter of the text and ignoring its intention!
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Re: Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

Postby Josef » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:44 pm

Virgo wrote:
On the subject of East vs West, I think the west is quite ready for the Ati level of Buddhism because consider the advances in knowledge in the West since the dawn of the so-called Enlightenment from the Mediaeval times.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.
Most practitioners wont even come to an authentic realization of the preciousness of life and impermanence, let alone be prepared to fully and authentically engage in the practices of trekcho and togal.


I guess my Gurus such as Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, Traga Rinpoche, and Lama Surya Das must be wrong then. They must also be wasting there time. Seeing that these lamas teach primarily Dzogchen to thousands of students and don't teach much tantra at all (with the exception of Traga Rinpoche who also gives non - Dzogchen teachings).

A major misconception about Dzogchen, I feel, is that people think that if you can't readily rest in rigpa, or if you are not already an Arya Bodhisattva, that you are not then ready for Dzogchen practice. This may have been true 100 years ago. But the times have changed. Many Vajra Masters have said so.

Thinking along the same lines: someone who cannot readily visualize themselves as a deity and then actually turn into it in real life is not ready to practice tantra.

There are many ways to progress along the Dzogchen path even though one cannot readily rest in rigpa from the beginning.

Kevin


Thats not what I was saying. Some of the teachers you mentioned are also teachers of mine.
And I most certainly dont believe the are "wasting their time".
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Re: Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

Postby Buddhanataka » Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:05 pm

Virgo wrote:Yes


It's a big job, but somebody has to do it; if I don't, who will? That's the resolve arrived at by our fundamental teacher, Shakyamuni Buddha, and by all Buddhas and bodhisattvas; and as the Buddha said in the Lotus Sutra whilst discoursing on the One Vehicle: "There is only this one way (ekayana); this is the sole purpose [of a sentient being]; there is no other way, not a second or a third"
Hence, we should strive to, ahem, "get the job done" as Virgo ever so prosaically puts it ..!
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Re: Dzogchen: When are you ready for it?

Postby Virgo » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:10 am

[quote=Nangwa]

Thats not what I was saying. Some of the teaheir time".[chers you mentioned are also teachers of mine.
And I most certainly dont believe the are "wasting t/quote]
Hi Nangwa. I may have misunderstood what you meant.
Kevin
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