Tantric sexual bliss vs. dhyanic bliss

[Virgo]

It is held on a concept and while the concept is there, it is not the same as the thing it represents.

but, there is no thing that it represents. it is just a deluded synthesis imputed onto minute parts, and the more the concentration builds the greater the absorption on the delusion.

As far as I know, that's right, yes.

you dont want to agree that clairvoyances are inferences.. you should want to say that just because a mental image is involved, this does not necessitate that the cognition is an inference (it only necessitates that it is conceptual..not all conceptual cognitions are inferential cognitions)

Consciousness can know an object that is not a concept, and does frequently, but not during [moments of] shamatha.

Kevin

[5heaps]

It is held on a concept and while the concept is there, it is not the same as the thing it represents.

but, there is no thing that it represents. it is just a deluded synthesis imputed onto minute parts, and the more the concentration builds the greater the absorption on the delusion.

As far as I know, that's right, yes.

in other words, the more sophisticated the concentration becomes, the greater the increase in delusion. yes, that makes good sense..
or, as more insight is gained through traversing the dhyanas, the more refined does ones delusion become. yes, that makes good sense..

i would be much more comfortable in accepting that gross objects are not just conceptual, that they do actually exist and function

[Virgo]

in other words, the more sophisticated the concentration becomes, the greater the increase in delusion. yes, that makes good sense..
or, as more insight is gained through traversing the dhyanas, the more refined does ones delusion become. yes, that makes good sense..

i would be much more comfortable in accepting that gross objects are not just conceptual, that they do actually exist and function

Samatha never removes delusion.

Concepts do function on one level. In fact without concepts we can't gain wisdom. Why? concepts approximate reality. The closer our approximations become, the closer we become to being free of conceptions. For example, if you wanted to practice Hinayana, you would need clear conceptual understanding of things before you could go beyond only apprehending "impermanence" and so forth, conceptually. The more facts you knew about dharmas, the more wisdom that removes delusion could occur on an experiential level.

Kevin

[deepbluehum]

Readers at this point are recommended to read the third volume of Tsonkhapa's Lam Rim Chen Mo, and also to follow that up with Berzin's description of Gelukpa's explanation of tantra. These documents do well to clarify what sort of mind can realize the nature of phenomena and the nature of mind at the same time.

[5heaps]

Concepts do function on one level. In fact without concepts we can't gain wisdom. Why? concepts approximate reality.

again, for you and Namdrol the object of focus is a mental concept. there is no underlying 'whole object' held by dhyana, there is just the image imputed onto parts. thats the object.

however, the factor necessary for a conceptual consciousness (mental imaging) is shut down in the advanced dhyanas, so the question then becomes 'in what way can this mind be considered conceptual'. furthermore how can you even hold a conceptual object without a conceptual consciousness? i think what hes saying is impossible. if its true that the object during dhyana is conceptual, then the mental consciousness is necessarily using a mental image (which contradicts the idea that advanced dhyanas are free of mental images)

i'm still wondering what Namdrol means when he says "diffuse conceptual mind" as opposed to just conceptual mind

[Virgo]

(which contradicts the idea that advanced dhyanas are free of mental images)

Which dhyanas? Supramundane? As far as I know supramundane dhyanas are non-conceptual but all mundane ones are conceptual. But you would have to ask Namdrol.

Namdrol is an expert on the Kosa. I am not an expert on anything.

Kevin