5 organs, elements, spirits

A forum for all questions about Tibetan Medicine. No more posting in this forum until further notice.

5 organs, elements, spirits

Postby dakini_boi » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:14 pm

I know TM is influenced by both Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. In the Chinese system, each of the organs has an elemental correspondence, as well as a "spirit" or aspect of the psyche associated with it. Was any of this integrated into Tibetan medicine?

Further, TCM describes the dying process and what happens to the spirits of the organs. For example, at least in one interpretation, the liver hun (ethereal soul) is what carries our karma/experience of past lives. Is any of this discussed in TM texts/teachings, alongside typical Buddhist descriptions of the dissolution of the elements at the time of death?
dakini_boi
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am

Re: 5 organs, elements, spirits

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:19 pm

dakini_boi wrote:I know TM is influenced by both Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. In the Chinese system, each of the organs has an elemental correspondence, as well as a "spirit" or aspect of the psyche associated with it. Was any of this integrated into Tibetan medicine?

Further, TCM describes the dying process and what happens to the spirits of the organs. For example, at least in one interpretation, the liver hun (ethereal soul) is what carries our karma/experience of past lives. Is any of this discussed in TM texts/teachings, alongside typical Buddhist descriptions of the dissolution of the elements at the time of death?



"Elements", yes, for example, wood for liver, metal for lungs and so on. Spirit, no.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10152
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 5 organs, elements, spirits

Postby nirmal » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:34 pm

Namdrol wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:I know TM is influenced by both Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. In the Chinese system, each of the organs has an elemental correspondence, as well as a "spirit" or aspect of the psyche associated with it. Was any of this integrated into Tibetan medicine?

Further, TCM describes the dying process and what happens to the spirits of the organs. For example, at least in one interpretation, the liver hun (ethereal soul) is what carries our karma/experience of past lives. Is any of this discussed in TM texts/teachings, alongside typical Buddhist descriptions of the dissolution of the elements at the time of death?



"Elements", yes, for example, wood for liver, metal for lungs and so on. Spirit, no.



This may sound a little silly but it is said that if the spiritual disturbance is removed first, then medicine taken by the patient will be very effective and the road to recovery is very fast. Does TM believe in that, Namdrol?
User avatar
nirmal
 
Posts: 340
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 9:22 pm

Re: 5 organs, elements, spirits

Postby Malcolm » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:40 pm

nirmal wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
dakini_boi wrote:I know TM is influenced by both Chinese medicine and Ayurveda. In the Chinese system, each of the organs has an elemental correspondence, as well as a "spirit" or aspect of the psyche associated with it. Was any of this integrated into Tibetan medicine?

Further, TCM describes the dying process and what happens to the spirits of the organs. For example, at least in one interpretation, the liver hun (ethereal soul) is what carries our karma/experience of past lives. Is any of this discussed in TM texts/teachings, alongside typical Buddhist descriptions of the dissolution of the elements at the time of death?



"Elements", yes, for example, wood for liver, metal for lungs and so on. Spirit, no.



This may sound a little silly but it is said that if the spiritual disturbance is removed first, then medicine taken by the patient will be very effective and the road to recovery is very fast. Does TM believe in that, Namdrol?


There are some cultural differences between Tibet and China, and the way "spirits" are understood is one of them.

AFAIK, while there are spirits or demons associated with most diseases, called "disease lords", they are not specific to a given organ, but rather govern a class of disease as a whole. Religious practice is always a component in any Tibetan medical treatment. So, the answer is yes and no. Yes in general, no on the specifics.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10152
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 5 organs, elements, spirits

Postby dakini_boi » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:23 pm

Namdrol wrote:"Elements", yes, for example, wood for liver, metal for lungs and so on. Spirit, no.



So I take it, TM uses Chinese elements (wood, fire, earth, metal, water) when discussing the organs, but Hindu elements (eart, water, fire, air, space) for everything else?

Namdrol wrote:AFAIK, while there are spirits or demons associated with most diseases, called "disease lords", they are not specific to a given organ, but rather govern a class of disease as a whole.


I should clarify that by "spirits of the organs" I was referring to the wu shen (5 shen) - not spirits in the sense of entities that cause disease (which also exist in TCM), but 5 aspects of consciousness of a human being that are said to reside in the 5 solid organs.
dakini_boi
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am

Re: 5 organs, elements, spirits

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:44 pm

dakini_boi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:"Elements", yes, for example, wood for liver, metal for lungs and so on. Spirit, no.



So I take it, TM uses Chinese elements (wood, fire, earth, metal, water) when discussing the organs, but Hindu elements (eart, water, fire, air, space) for everything else?



It uses the five phases for pulse diagnosis; the five elements (India) for everything else.



I should clarify that by "spirits of the organs" I was referring to the wu shen (5 shen) - not spirits in the sense of entities that cause disease (which also exist in TCM), but 5 aspects of consciousness of a human being that are said to reside in the 5 solid organs.


That concept never made it into Tibetan medicine.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10152
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: 5 organs, elements, spirits

Postby dakini_boi » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:It uses the five phases for pulse diagnosis; the five elements (India) for everything else.


So for the 5 solid organs, TM uses the Indian elements?

I have browsed through a book called Ayurvedic Acupuncture that proposes an Ayurvedic basis for TCM theory, based on Ayurvedic texts (according to the book). In that book, instead of wood for the liver, they use space, and instead of metal for the lungs, they use air. (I may have these two reversed.) Does TM use this same scheme for the 5 solid organs?

Does TM also have 10 organs grouped into "elemental pairs," such as lungs/large intestine, heart/small intestine, etc?

Thank you.
dakini_boi
 
Posts: 678
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:02 am


Return to Tibetan Medicine

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

>