External Things and Consciousness Only

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Re: Is Pure Land "Buddhism" contradictory to Buddhism?

Postby Aemilius » Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:17 pm

Kai wrote:
Huifeng wrote:Well, for most of the Yogacara tradition, such as that through Maitreyanatha, Asanga and Vasubandhu to begin with, the Lankavatara is not a main text.
In fact, many would clearly point out that the Lankavatara is a kind of Tathagatagarbha synthesis with Alayavijnana thought. So, usually not considered as very "representative".


I recalled that Asanga in fact reject the synthesis between Tathagatagarbha and Alayavijnana. In His teachings, Alayavijnana contains pure and impure karmic seeds but the former is not Buddha nature and that development came much latter with the rise and gain in popularity of the Lotus Sutra.


Five Works of Maitreya have been classified in various ways by different authorities, according to Karma-kagyu Uttara Tantra Shastra and Abhisamayalankara are madhyamaka, and other three are cittamatra, Dharmadharmata vibhaga and Madhyanta vibhaga both describe the Three Natures (Svabhava), Uttara Tantra Shastra is very much concerned about Sugatagarbha.
What is intented by synthesis? Five Works of Maitreya/Asanga describe different approaches to, and different facets of Dharma.
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Re: Is Pure Land "Buddhism" contradictory to Buddhism?

Postby Kai » Thu Sep 22, 2011 5:18 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Kai wrote:
Huifeng wrote:Well, for most of the Yogacara tradition, such as that through Maitreyanatha, Asanga and Vasubandhu to begin with, the Lankavatara is not a main text.
In fact, many would clearly point out that the Lankavatara is a kind of Tathagatagarbha synthesis with Alayavijnana thought. So, usually not considered as very "representative".


I recalled that Asanga in fact reject the synthesis between Tathagatagarbha and Alayavijnana. In His teachings, Alayavijnana contains pure and impure karmic seeds but the former is not Buddha nature and that development came much latter with the rise and gain in popularity of the Lotus Sutra.


Five Works of Maitreya have been classified in various ways by different authorities, according to Karma-kagyu Uttara Tantra Shastra and Abhisamayalankara are madhyamaka, and other three are cittamatra, Dharmadharmata vibhaga and Madhyanta vibhaga both describe the Three Natures (Svabhava), Uttara Tantra Shastra is very much concerned about Sugatagarbha.
What is intented by synthesis? Five Works of Maitreya/Asanga describe different approaches to, and different facets of Dharma.


That depends on what you classified as "Five Works of Maitreya/Asanga", in Chinese Buddhism, Uttara Tantra Shastra was and is never considered as one of the five works and neither was Abhisamaya-alaṅkāra. In fact, both works appeared much later, a few centuries after the death of Asanga. Xuanzang, a renowed Chinese translator and Yogacara scholar, had never mentioned any of the two works in his collections of Indian Yogacara Buddhist texts or attributed them to Asanga. Then centuries later, both texts appeared in Tibet and suddenly attributed authorship to Asanga.............

Interesting enough, both Abhisamaya-alaṅkāra and Uttara Tantra Shastra carried views that are vastly different from Asanga's original works like Yogācārabhūmi Śāstra, etc. So the most feasible explanation is that neither of the two works were authored by Him, at least directly.........
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Re: Is Pure Land "Buddhism" contradictory to Buddhism?

Postby Aemilius » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:17 am

Kai wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Kai wrote:
I recalled that Asanga in fact reject the synthesis between Tathagatagarbha and Alayavijnana. In His teachings, Alayavijnana contains pure and impure karmic seeds but the former is not Buddha nature and that development came much latter with the rise and gain in popularity of the Lotus Sutra.


Five Works of Maitreya have been classified in various ways by different authorities, according to Karma-kagyu Uttara Tantra Shastra and Abhisamayalankara are madhyamaka, and other three are cittamatra, Dharmadharmata vibhaga and Madhyanta vibhaga both describe the Three Natures (Svabhava), Uttara Tantra Shastra is very much concerned about Sugatagarbha.
What is intented by synthesis? Five Works of Maitreya/Asanga describe different approaches to, and different facets of Dharma.


That depends on what you classified as "Five Works of Maitreya/Asanga", in Chinese Buddhism, Uttara Tantra Shastra was and is never considered as one of the five works and neither was Abhisamaya-alaṅkāra. In fact, both works appeared much later, a few centuries after the death of Asanga. Xuanzang, a renowed Chinese translator and Yogacara scholar, had never mentioned any of the two works in his collections of Indian Yogacara Buddhist texts or attributed them to Asanga. Then centuries later, both texts appeared in Tibet and suddenly attributed authorship to Asanga.............

Interesting enough, both Abhisamaya-alaṅkāra and Uttara Tantra Shastra carried views that are vastly different from Asanga's original works like Yogācārabhūmi Śāstra, etc. So the most feasible explanation is that neither of the two works were authored by Him, at least directly.........


Ofcourse they are not authored by him, because they are works of Maitreya ! Do you also not believe that Arya Asanga spent twenty years in meditation before meeting Maitreya ?
Do you believe that there actually is meditation in the buddhist sense? -that is not just "deep relaxation"?
I see no reason to doubt the authenticity of the Five Works.
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Kai » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:34 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Kai wrote:
Interesting enough, both Abhisamaya-alaṅkāra and Uttara Tantra Shastra carried views that are vastly different from Asanga's original works like Yogācārabhūmi Śāstra, etc. So the most feasible explanation is that neither of the two works were authored by Him, at least directly.........


Ofcourse they are not authored by him, because they are works of Maitreya ! Do you also not believe that Arya Asanga spent twenty years in meditation before meeting Maitreya ?


You completely missed my point

The Chinese Buddhists believe that Abhisamaya-alaṅkāra and Uttara Tantra Shastra are not authored by Asanga or Maitreya. I have already explained their POV and their reasonings. If you have something against what they think, then please take it up against them.

I see no reason to doubt the authenticity of the Five Works.


Buddhism doesn't belong to Tibetans alone and the entire corpus of Yogacara teachings entered China centuries before it reached Tibet. If you want to prove their authenticity, then please provide historical dates or scholarly articles, not using some forms of strange arguments.
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Aemilius » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:54 am

Kai wrote:
Aemilius wrote:
Kai wrote:
Interesting enough, both Abhisamaya-alaṅkāra and Uttara Tantra Shastra carried views that are vastly different from Asanga's original works like Yogācārabhūmi Śāstra, etc. So the most feasible explanation is that neither of the two works were authored by Him, at least directly.........


Ofcourse they are not authored by him, because they are works of Maitreya ! Do you also not believe that Arya Asanga spent twenty years in meditation before meeting Maitreya ?


You completely missed my point

The Chinese Buddhists believe that Abhisamaya-alaṅkāra and Uttara Tantra Shastra are not authored by Asanga or Maitreya. I have already explained their POV and their reasonings. If you have something against what they think, then please take it up against them.

I see no reason to doubt the authenticity of the Five Works.


Buddhism doesn't belong to Tibetans alone and the entire corpus of Yogacara teachings entered China centuries before it reached Tibet. If you want to prove their authenticity, then please provide historical dates or scholarly articles, not using some forms of strange arguments.


If you state their origin by the locality the Five Works are Indian in origin, it is misleading to divert the discussion to all the chinese buddhists that there are! The chinese buddhists generally accept the existence of Maitreya and Tushita devaloka, I don't think they would have much difficulty in this. The pureland school of China talks of Tushita devaloka, it is an existing realm for them. The argument is based on reality, reality which most scholars seem to be unaware of, unfortunately.
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Aemilius » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:06 am

From the Five Works of Maitreya also Ratngotravibhaga has been translated into chinese, see the wikipedia article about it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratna-gotra-vibhaga It has been highly influential in the far east too.

An article about Maitreya in China and elsewhere,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Kai » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:24 pm

Aemilius wrote:If you state their origin by the locality the Five Works are Indian in origin, it is misleading to divert the discussion to all the chinese buddhists that there are! The chinese buddhists generally accept the existence of Maitreya and Tushita devaloka, I don't think they would have much difficulty in this. The pureland school of China talks of Tushita devaloka, it is an existing realm for them. The argument is based on reality, reality which most scholars seem to be unaware of, unfortunately.


I don't understanding your arguments, for a good analogy, I'm talking about apples and yet you are jumping over to oranges.......If you don't bother to read and understand my arguments, please don't try arguing. Its rather embarrassing........really........

No one deny the existence of Matireya not even the scholars, although I know of people here who supports the idea of a human teacher called Maitreya behind those five works rather than the Bodhisattva, Himself. Scholars do know more about the historicity of sutras, sastras, etc, and much more qualified than you do. Before you disregard them as some misinformed dudes like you did in another thread, please take a good look at your credentials first, please.

From the Five Works of Maitreya also Ratngotravibhaga has been translated into chinese, see the wikipedia article about it It has been highly influential in the far east too.


Five works of Matireya in Chinese Buddhism are as the following:

1) Yogacarabhumi sastra (only a small [part is translated into English)

2) Yogavibhaga (Reputed to be lost)

3) Mahayanasutralamkara

4) Madhyantavibhaga

5) Vajracchedikavyakhya

As you could see, its very different from the Tibetan's five works of Maitreya. Abhisamaya-alaṅkāra and Uttara Tantra Shastra are not within the list. Xuanzang, a reputed Yogacara scholar and fanatic, never mentioned about Abhisamaya-alaṅkāra at all even though he travelled all over India and central Asia in search of Yogacara teachings and teachers. In fact, according to the Chinese, Uttara Tantra Shastra are said to be authored by Sāramati, not Asanga or Maitreya. Hence, both works are not considered in the five works.

Btw, regarding the last point that I made, your above link reveals the information as well. Why don't you read your own link first before telling others to do so............sighz........
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Aemilius » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:03 am

What is the source of your list ? It is simply false, totally false! Please see the wikipedia article about Ratnagotravibhaga. It says there:" The text and its commentary are preserved in tibetan and chinese translations."

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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Kai » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:32 pm

Aemilius wrote:What is the source of your list ? It is simply false, totally false!


Yeah, yeah, denial as usual. Why am I not surprised. FYI, the five works of Maitreya I list above is the standard list in the Chinese Buddhism, just go ask any Chinese Buddhist scholar . Do your own research, I'm tired of spoon feeding you.

Please see the wikipedia article about Ratnagotravibhaga. It says there:" The text and its commentary are preserved in tibetan and chinese translations."


Oh really? The below information is taken from the wiki itself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratna-gotra-vibhaga

The text is attributed to a certain Sthiramati or Sāramati in the earlier Chinese tradition, while the Tibetan tradition considers the verse portion to have been composed by Maitreya-nātha and the prose commentary by Asanga. Ruegg suggests that the Chinese and Tibetan traditions may be reconciled by understanding the name given in Chinese sources as an epithet for Maitreya..................


You just shoot yourself on your own foot. You have just proven the fact that you have not read the wiki article that you recommended yourself.
Last edited by Kai on Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Tara » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:35 pm

Please refrain from personal remarks/comments/attacks. Further posts which contain such content will be removed without further notice.

Regards,
It's not a competition. It's a choice.
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Aemilius » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:23 am

Kai wrote:
Aemilius wrote:What is the source of your list ? It is simply false, totally false!


Yeah, yeah, denial as usual. Why am I not surprised. FYI, the five works of Maitreya I list above is the standard list in the Chinese Buddhism, just go ask any Chinese Buddhist scholar . Do your own research, I'm tired of spoon feeding you.

Please see the wikipedia article about Ratnagotravibhaga. It says there:" The text and its commentary are preserved in tibetan and chinese translations."


Oh really? The below information is taken from the wiki itself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratna-gotra-vibhaga

The text is attributed to a certain Sthiramati or Sāramati in the earlier Chinese tradition, while the Tibetan tradition considers the verse portion to have been composed by Maitreya-nātha and the prose commentary by Asanga. Ruegg suggests that the Chinese and Tibetan traditions may be reconciled by understanding the name given in Chinese sources as an epithet for Maitreya..................


The thing is that Wikipedia expresses different views on the subject, it does not claim that any one particular view is the sole truth, thus it says in its main article about Maitreya:"In Mahayana schools, Maitreya is traditionally said to have revealed the Five Treatises of Maitreya through Asanga." It further describes how the worship of Maitreya has periodically been opposed and even banned in China. It is thus quite natural that the opponents of the Maitreya movement put forward views like the ones you mention, and that they go so far as to leave out the most important of his works, wishing to undermine it, to ignore it! I hope this makes my thinking more clear.
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Kai » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:22 pm

Aemilius wrote: It further describes how the worship of Maitreya has periodically been opposed and even banned in China. It is thus quite natural that the opponents of the Maitreya movement put forward views like the ones you mention, and that they go so far as to leave out the most important of his works, wishing to undermine it, to ignore it! I hope this makes my thinking more clear.



:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Aemilius » Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:35 am

Maybe you don't know about what are called Maitreya rebellions in Chinese history? Their existence proves that there was some serious disagreement between Maitreya movement and the other, legally established, buddhist schools in China, who maybe were not that impartial toward the the Maitreya movement and their scriptures!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#Maitreyan_rebellions
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Kai » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:33 pm

Aemilius wrote:Maybe you don't know about what are called Maitreya rebellions in Chinese history? Their existence proves that there was some serious disagreement between Maitreya movement and the other, legally established, buddhist schools in China, who maybe were not that impartial toward the the Maitreya movement and their scriptures!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya#Maitreyan_rebellions


Say whatever you want, dude. I doubt anyone will treat you seriously on this board by now. You seriously need some study in Chinese history before crapping it directly off from wiki without understanding a single historical fact or event........

Suffice to say that you are seriously off tangent. Can't really blame you since you are ignorant on pretty lots of areas especially when it comes to history and science.
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Re: External Things and Consciousness Only

Postby Aemilius » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:28 am

From the little study of history that I have done during my life I have learned that the history is invariably written, or dictated, by the forces that are in power.

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