Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Virgo » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:51 pm

Fa Dao wrote:In regards to these perhaps someone knowledgeable can answer this for me...
4 thuns=1 day of practice
how much time per thun?

I think you wake up around 4 practice till breakfast at 7 ish. Practice till lunch. Take a break and eat. Practice till dinner. Take a break. Practice till 10pm.

But that is more retreat style.

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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:58 pm

Kelwin wrote:And was that after the group got instruction and blessing from a teacher to do it, or just like that?
I mean, I got pointing out instruction by CNNR and others, and have the precious vase standing here, but would never consider doing those practice in a session without my teacher telling me to.
Otherwise, it's just playing around with some gimmick that we're not ready for anyway. Isn't it?

No it isn't. You're just being a little silly. :tongue: :hug:
Rinpoche has explicitly said multiple times that after we have received a direct introduction we can freely do all the semdzin and rushan (and also zernga) and they are explained well in various books so we can read and apply. You don't need any special blessing or transmission or permission to do them. Of course I'm talking about how it is with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, I don't know if everyone teaches this way. If your root teacher isn't Rinpoche and he says otherwise then probably better you listen to him.

heart wrote:I have never seen that text, what is it called?

Well the explanation on semdzins is in theg mchog mdzod, I don't think it has a particular title. Otherwise the semdzins are mentioned in Dra Thalgyur and Nyida Khajor (apparently in this one also described) tantras. But if you meant which book it is in the DC, it's just called "The 21 Semdzins of Dzogchen Upadesha", it has the translation of Longchenpa's text and Rinpoche's oral commentary.

Tun in DC is 2 hours (minimum).
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:06 pm

Pero wrote:Tun in DC is 2 hours (minimum).



Why are we keeping track of our hours? I thought it was about quality not quantity (hence, we don't count with a mala, for example). This is just a thought. I know we are expected to put hundreds of hours in to accomplish anything. If a tun is 2 hours, then I probably haven't done a tun in my life outside of a retreat. About 45min morning (and night, maximum).

This stuff about keeping track of your hours for SMS just seems weird to me. Someone told me to log my hours in serving DC so I could apply it as karma yoga for SMS. I never have and never will. If this "karma yoga" is doing me any good, I think the changes I see in my life will be acknowledgement enough for me. If I need to fulfill a requirement, I'll just write it in. I'm quite sure I've already met the requirements in the past few years. But, actually, I don't have any interest in SMS since nobody has ever completed all levels yet and I don't want to be a teacher, anyway.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:11 pm

I don't mean to be negative or discourage anyone. I am just trying to be honest to provoke honest responses. If you want to slam me, of course you should feel free. Maybe I deserve it, maybe I should hear whatever you have to say.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:29 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Pero wrote:Tun in DC is 2 hours (minimum).

Why are we keeping track of our hours? I thought it was about quality not quantity (hence, we don't count with a mala, for example). This is just a thought. I know we are expected to put hundreds of hours in to accomplish anything. If a tun is 2 hours, then I probably haven't done a tun in my life outside of a retreat. About 45min morning (and night, maximum).

This stuff about keeping track of your hours for SMS just seems weird to me. Someone told me to log my hours in serving DC so I could apply it as karma yoga for SMS. I never have and never will. If this "karma yoga" is doing me any good, I think the changes I see in my life will be acknowledgement enough for me. If I need to fulfill a requirement, I'll just write it in. I'm quite sure I've already met the requirements in the past few years. But, actually, I don't have any interest in SMS since nobody has ever completed all levels yet and I don't want to be a teacher, anyway.

If you're not doing SMS then it doesn't matter how much hours you do specifically. I don't know who's "we" but if I have it with me, I certainly use a mala haha. And there are practices where you simply have to count since there are more than one mantras and the number of recitations for the second (or third too) mantra depends on how many recitations you did of the first mantra.
You can do anything by quality and/or quantity. But if you're not counting the mantras for example, then you have to keep track of time, otherwise you're not going to know if you achieved the required amount (in SMS).

Tun is actually just a session of practice. But for SMS there's a certain amount of time required for each practice and that is expressed through the amount of days you're supposed to do it at the minimum. Each day consists of 4 tuns. If you can't do a 2 hour long tun, or 4 tuns a day, you can just spread it out.

SMS is really not just for becoming a teacher, it's for making your knowledge of the teachings more concrete. 99% of the people who are doing SMS aren't teachers.

I find not wanting to do SMS because nobody completed all levels yet quite a strange reason. What do you mean? :shrug:
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:39 pm

Thanks for your detailed response, now things are clearer to me and a wave of frustration has passed over me and out the door. :thanks:
Pero wrote:I find not wanting to do SMS because nobody completed all levels yet quite a strange reason. What do you mean? :shrug:

I don't remember the exact details, but I believe what I heard is that there are 9 levels. I asked how many people have completed and was told that nobody has even passed the 3rd or 4th level (forgot). I think actually the words were that the highest level as of right now is 3rd or 4th and nobody has completed them. In other words, the other levels only exist theoretically, I guess, because they are not even written out or discussed since there are no students. I don't know. But, since SMS has been going on for quite a while and involves quite a lot of old hats at this stuff who have been sitting on their bums for quite a long time now chanting mantras, writing books translating Tibetan texts (Jim Valby), I just don't see the point of even attempting it. Why get involved in something nobody will ever likely finish?
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:56 pm

padma norbu wrote:I don't remember the exact details, but I believe what I heard is that there are 9 levels. I asked how many people have completed and was told that nobody has even passed the 3rd or 4th level (forgot). I think actually the words were that the highest level as of right now is 3rd or 4th and nobody has completed them. In other words, the other levels only exist theoretically, I guess, because they are not even written out or discussed since there are no students. I don't know. But, since SMS has been going on for quite a while and involves quite a lot of old hats at this stuff who have been sitting on their bums for quite a long time now chanting mantras, writing books translating Tibetan texts (Jim Valby), I just don't see the point of even attempting it. Why get involved in something nobody will ever likely finish?

Oh I see. Rinpoche hasn't taught more than the 4th level. Apparently it gets quite difficult after the second level. They are written out though. Sort of. There exists a booklet called Santi Maha Sangha (I got it in Merigar, didn't see it online) and in it all levels of SMS are outlined in the form of a poem. There you can see SMS is really something alive, it's really about your own practice developing. Looking at it, it seems to me that completing level 9 basically means achieving Rainbow body haha.

As for your question. Why do you concern yourself whether others will finish it or not? Why don't YOU try to finish it? :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:14 pm

Pero wrote:As for your question. Why do you concern yourself whether others will finish it or not? Why don't YOU try to finish it? :smile:
Because I know I won't based on my astute observation of the effort exerted by others to accomplish this since the 70s, I believe, vs the effort I will exert in comparison by the year 2040. In terms of a bar graph, the difference would look something like this: | _
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:54 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Pero wrote:As for your question. Why do you concern yourself whether others will finish it or not? Why don't YOU try to finish it? :smile:
Because I know I won't based on my astute observation of the effort exerted by others to accomplish this since the 70s, I believe, vs the effort I will exert in comparison by the year 2040. In terms of a bar graph, the difference would look something like this: | _

Haha so what? :D
IMO you're thinking of SMS too much like a school program where it's important to finish it otherwise you've got basically nothing.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 26, 2011 12:26 am

Actually, I wasn't thinking of it like school at all. School I know I can finish.

The only comparison I can draw is to $cientology and I'm awfully sorry about that, but I can't think of a better, less offensive-on-the-surface comparison. What I mean is: they have many levels and you can work at it your whole life, but the odds that you will ever reach the level where you actually learn about Lord Xenu is probably not ever going to happen.

It is less discouraging, though, to realize level 9 in SMS is basically Rainbow Body, as you said. I didn't think I was going to achieve that, anyway, so thanks for mentioning that! :smile:
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Kelwin » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:31 am

Pero wrote:
Kelwin wrote:And was that after the group got instruction and blessing from a teacher to do it, or just like that?
I mean, I got pointing out instruction by CNNR and others, and have the precious vase standing here, but would never consider doing those practice in a session without my teacher telling me to.
Otherwise, it's just playing around with some gimmick that we're not ready for anyway. Isn't it?

No it isn't. You're just being a little silly. :tongue: :hug:
Rinpoche has explicitly said multiple times that after we have received a direct introduction we can freely do all the semdzin and rushan (and also zernga) and they are explained well in various books so we can read and apply. You don't need any special blessing or transmission or permission to do them. Of course I'm talking about how it is with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, I don't know if everyone teaches this way. If your root teacher isn't Rinpoche and he says otherwise then probably better you listen to him.

Ok, if he says that, who am I to contradict him? No more questions then, that settles it.

But then why does this make me so deeply sad inside? :shrug:
I guess you're right, I am being a little silly. In my mind these practices are sacred, to be revered, and practiced intensely after our teacher tells us to. I must be getting too old...

Ah well, may these practices be beneficial for all who encounter them! :twothumbsup:
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:03 pm

Kelwin wrote:But then why does this make me so deeply sad inside? :shrug:
I guess you're right, I am being a little silly. In my mind these practices are sacred, to be revered, and practiced intensely after our teacher tells us to. I must be getting too old...

Ah well, may these practices be beneficial for all who encounter them! :twothumbsup:


Have you been practicing them intensely and getting a lot out of them? It's hard to tell what anybody gets out of various practices because everyone just smiles and keeps quiet about whatever they are experiencing.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Kelwin » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:14 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Kelwin wrote:But then why does this make me so deeply sad inside? :shrug:
I guess you're right, I am being a little silly. In my mind these practices are sacred, to be revered, and practiced intensely after our teacher tells us to. I must be getting too old...

Ah well, may these practices be beneficial for all who encounter them! :twothumbsup:


Have you been practicing them intensely and getting a lot out of them? It's hard to tell what anybody gets out of various practices because everyone just smiles and keeps quiet about whatever they are experiencing.

Hmm, my natural reaction to that would be to just smile and keep quiet about whatever I am experiencing.

But ok, let's be a bit more open than that. Yes I have learned and practiced 2 semdzins, according to explanations of my teachers. I have not learned all of them (although I know more). And they have never been a main emphasize in my practice either, although they might become that later on.

For me though, these practices are something very special. Methods that point directly to the essence. Methods that really woke up something within, when I found them. So yes, to see someone say that he learned them in a book, tried it a bit, didn't really see the point, etc. It hurts somehow.
I'm generally a bit of a cynical person, not all that emotional. These practices though... it touches something so deeply, I become a bit melodramatic maybe. Please forgive me :namaste:
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:12 pm

Kelwin wrote:
Pero wrote:Rinpoche has explicitly said multiple times that after we have received a direct introduction we can freely do all the semdzin and rushan (and also zernga) and they are explained well in various books so we can read and apply. You don't need any special blessing or transmission or permission to do them. Of course I'm talking about how it is with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, I don't know if everyone teaches this way. If your root teacher isn't Rinpoche and he says otherwise then probably better you listen to him.

Ok, if he says that, who am I to contradict him? No more questions then, that settles it.

But then why does this make me so deeply sad inside? :shrug:

I guess you're right, I am being a little silly. In my mind these practices are sacred, to be revered, and practiced intensely after our teacher tells us to. I must be getting too old...

Semdzins and rushan are important and precious but I think there's not much use to revering them without doing them.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby alpha » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:45 pm

Pero wrote:
padma norbu wrote:I don't remember the exact details, but I believe what I heard is that there are 9 levels. I asked how many people have completed and was told that nobody has even passed the 3rd or 4th level (forgot). I think actually the words were that the highest level as of right now is 3rd or 4th and nobody has completed them. In other words, the other levels only exist theoretically, I guess, because they are not even written out or discussed since there are no students. I don't know. But, since SMS has been going on for quite a while and involves quite a lot of old hats at this stuff who have been sitting on their bums for quite a long time now chanting mantras, writing books translating Tibetan texts (Jim Valby), I just don't see the point of even attempting it. Why get involved in something nobody will ever likely finish?

Oh I see. Rinpoche hasn't taught more than the 4th level. Apparently it gets quite difficult after the second level. They are written out though. Sort of. There exists a booklet called Santi Maha Sangha (I got it in Merigar, didn't see it online) and in it all levels of SMS are outlined in the form of a poem. There you can see SMS is really something alive, it's really about your own practice developing. Looking at it, it seems to me that completing level 9 basically means achieving Rainbow body haha.

As for your question. Why do you concern yourself whether others will finish it or not? Why don't YOU try to finish it? :smile:



what do you learn at the second and third level?
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:57 pm

alpha wrote:what do you learn at the second and third level?

Don't know.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:16 pm

alpha wrote:
Pero wrote:
padma norbu wrote:I don't remember the exact details, but I believe what I heard is that there are 9 levels. I asked how many people have completed and was told that nobody has even passed the 3rd or 4th level (forgot). I think actually the words were that the highest level as of right now is 3rd or 4th and nobody has completed them. In other words, the other levels only exist theoretically, I guess, because they are not even written out or discussed since there are no students. I don't know. But, since SMS has been going on for quite a while and involves quite a lot of old hats at this stuff who have been sitting on their bums for quite a long time now chanting mantras, writing books translating Tibetan texts (Jim Valby), I just don't see the point of even attempting it. Why get involved in something nobody will ever likely finish?

Oh I see. Rinpoche hasn't taught more than the 4th level. Apparently it gets quite difficult after the second level. They are written out though. Sort of. There exists a booklet called Santi Maha Sangha (I got it in Merigar, didn't see it online) and in it all levels of SMS are outlined in the form of a poem. There you can see SMS is really something alive, it's really about your own practice developing. Looking at it, it seems to me that completing level 9 basically means achieving Rainbow body haha.

As for your question. Why do you concern yourself whether others will finish it or not? Why don't YOU try to finish it? :smile:



what do you learn at the second and third level?


1-3 sems sde
4-6 klong sde
7-9 man ngag sde

BTW, everything that Rinpoche teaches in these nine levels he also teaches in general. The difference is that SMS is more systematic and a bit more detailed. But he teaches everything to everyone.

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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Kelwin » Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:26 pm

Pero wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
Pero wrote:Rinpoche has explicitly said multiple times that after we have received a direct introduction we can freely do all the semdzin and rushan (and also zernga) and they are explained well in various books so we can read and apply. You don't need any special blessing or transmission or permission to do them. Of course I'm talking about how it is with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, I don't know if everyone teaches this way. If your root teacher isn't Rinpoche and he says otherwise then probably better you listen to him.

Ok, if he says that, who am I to contradict him? No more questions then, that settles it.

But then why does this make me so deeply sad inside? :shrug:

I guess you're right, I am being a little silly. In my mind these practices are sacred, to be revered, and practiced intensely after our teacher tells us to. I must be getting too old...

Semdzins and rushan are important and precious but I think there's not much use to revering them without doing them.

Yup, both! :cheers:
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Josef » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:36 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Have you been practicing them intensely and getting a lot out of them? It's hard to tell what anybody gets out of various practices because everyone just smiles and keeps quiet about whatever they are experiencing.

I certainly got a lot of benefit out of them.
Not claiming any kind of realization or anything but I certainly experienced their value directly.
I did rushen via the instructions in Yeshe Lama.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Heruka » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:47 am

saying in public...

hey im a man..look at what i do..,

sticking it out there for all to see, only to get it caught in your zipper....


lol

you dzogchenpas crack me up.
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