Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

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Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Fa Dao » Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:23 pm

Does anyone know if ChNNR's book "Teachings on Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins" has any more details on these practices than does the Precious Vase book? Maybe I am just a little slow but there are a number of minor points that I am not clear about and it is probably not a good idea to discuss them in an open forum.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:43 pm

Fa Dao wrote:Does anyone know if ChNNR's book "Teachings on Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins" has any more details on these practices than does the Precious Vase book? Maybe I am just a little slow but there are a number of minor points that I am not clear about and it is probably not a good idea to discuss them in an open forum.

I have both books but it's hard for me to say if there are more details or not, I think it's explained well enough in both. Just in the PV there's a translation of a text and a bit of Rinpoche's commentary while in ToLRaS there is transcription of Rinpoche's teachings he gave at some retreats based on that text. I guess you could PM me what's not clear and I'll look into ToLRaS to see if it's better explained. And yes, it's not a good idea to discuss these practices publicly. Actually you simply shouldn't (samaya).
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Sat Sep 24, 2011 10:07 pm

I have both books. I don't think either is much clearer than the other. I also don't do them.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby heart » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:23 am

These things are difficult to learn from a book.

/magnus
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:31 am

heart wrote:These things are difficult to learn from a book.

/magnus

Eh, except for the 7th lojong and one or two semdzins, I don't think so. :smile:
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby heart » Sun Sep 25, 2011 11:40 am

Pero wrote:
heart wrote:These things are difficult to learn from a book.

/magnus

Eh, except for the 7th lojong and one or two semdzins, I don't think so. :smile:


Well, when you do them, at least the rushan, there is a lot that isn't covered in the books. Books will leave a lot of doubt if not backed up by someone with practical experience in the practice. Doubts is really bad in Vajrayana.

/magnus
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:11 pm

heart wrote:
Pero wrote:
heart wrote:These things are difficult to learn from a book.

/magnus

Eh, except for the 7th lojong and one or two semdzins, I don't think so. :smile:


Well, when you do them, at least the rushan, there is a lot that isn't covered in the books. Books will leave a lot of doubt if not backed up by someone with practical experience in the practice. Doubts is really bad in Vajrayana.

I suppose that depends on the books you're reading then. I received oral teachings on Rushan and Semdzin too and I can't say there was much more explained than in the books. It's a little odd to say books (in this case) aren't backed up by someone with practical experience. The root texts are by Longchenpa and Adzam Drugpa for example, other books are transcriptions of teachings. So you can't say it isn't backed up by practical experience. Unless you mean there is no one to ask about one's own experiences during these practices, which is a different matter.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:57 pm

I first did them with the sangha for a couple hours. We tried a few different ones. I left thinking :zzz:

Reminded me of a cat chasing a laser pointer.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby heart » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:03 pm

Pero wrote:I suppose that depends on the books you're reading then. I received oral teachings on Rushan and Semdzin too and I can't say there was much more explained than in the books. It's a little odd to say books (in this case) aren't backed up by someone with practical experience. The root texts are by Longchenpa and Adzam Drugpa for example, other books are transcriptions of teachings. So you can't say it isn't backed up by practical experience. Unless you mean there is no one to ask about one's own experiences during these practices, which is a different matter.


The root texts are very terse indeed and don't shed much light on these practices. I actually meant that you need to discuss how to do these practices with someone that done a lot of it, not necessary a teacher a fellow student will do.

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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Pero » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:03 pm

heart wrote:
Pero wrote:I suppose that depends on the books you're reading then. I received oral teachings on Rushan and Semdzin too and I can't say there was much more explained than in the books. It's a little odd to say books (in this case) aren't backed up by someone with practical experience. The root texts are by Longchenpa and Adzam Drugpa for example, other books are transcriptions of teachings. So you can't say it isn't backed up by practical experience. Unless you mean there is no one to ask about one's own experiences during these practices, which is a different matter.


The root texts are very terse indeed and don't shed much light on these practices.

Not all, I think Longchenpa's explanation of the 21 semdzins was pretty clear. Although perhaps that is not considered a root text since it comes from a root tantra, I wonder how much explanation is in the tantra hehe.
Rushan explanation on the other hand can be very terse like you say.

I actually meant that you need to discuss how to do these practices with someone that done a lot of it, not necessary a teacher a fellow student will do.

Well if something isn't clear or if you have doubts like you said before then sure, but otherwise I don't think you "need" to do it. :smile:
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:09 pm

It is nice to know that I am not the only one who has a little difficulty doing these various practices from a book and wondering if I am doing it correctly or not.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:37 pm

I don't really understand why they are necessary, tbh. At least the ones I've done.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Kelwin » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:55 pm

padma norbu wrote:I don't really understand why they are necessary, tbh. At least the ones I've done.

You, and the sangha, learned them from a book?
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:38 pm

Kelwin wrote:
padma norbu wrote:I don't really understand why they are necessary, tbh. At least the ones I've done.

You, and the sangha, learned them from a book?

What happened was this: guy leading the practice read from book aloud, then repeated what he just read more concisely and asked if there was any questions and then we did the practice. Whatever I didn't learn from him via book-reading aloud, I learned myself via book-reading silently in the comfort of my own home. So, yes.
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Kelwin » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:07 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Kelwin wrote:
padma norbu wrote:I don't really understand why they are necessary, tbh. At least the ones I've done.

You, and the sangha, learned them from a book?

What happened was this: guy leading the practice read from book aloud, then repeated what he just read more concisely and asked if there was any questions and then we did the practice. Whatever I didn't learn from him via book-reading aloud, I learned myself via book-reading silently in the comfort of my own home. So, yes.

And was that after the group got instruction and blessing from a teacher to do it, or just like that?
I mean, I got pointing out instruction by CNNR and others, and have the precious vase standing here, but would never consider doing those practice in a session without my teacher telling me to.
Otherwise, it's just playing around with some gimmick that we're not ready for anyway. Isn't it?
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:10 pm

In regards to these perhaps someone knowledgeable can answer this for me...
4 thuns=1 day of practice
how much time per thun?
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby heart » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:11 pm

Pero wrote:Not all, I think Longchenpa's explanation of the 21 semdzins was pretty clear.


I have never seen that text, what is it called?

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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby heart » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:12 pm

Fa Dao wrote:In regards to these perhaps someone knowledgeable can answer this for me...
4 thuns=1 day of practice
how much time per thun?


In general 2-3 hours is a thun, in the Dzogchen Community I have no idea.

/magnus
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby Fa Dao » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:19 pm

cool..thanks Magnus
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Re: Lojongs, Rushens, and Semdzins

Postby padma norbu » Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:46 pm

Kelwin wrote:And was that after the group got instruction and blessing from a teacher to do it, or just like that?
I mean, I got pointing out instruction by CNNR and others, and have the precious vase standing here, but would never consider doing those practice in a session without my teacher telling me to.
Otherwise, it's just playing around with some gimmick that we're not ready for anyway. Isn't it?

Everyone there received transmission and can do these practices. There was no prior instruction or "blessing." The guy leading the sangha was aware of everyone's situation: we were all n00bs. You don't get "pointing out instructions" about these practices as far as I know. I didn't interrogate him about it. If he was "pointing out" anything, he was pointing out exactly what was in the book because he read it verbatim.

To quote the Oregon Dzogchen Community's website: "The Transmission of Guru Yoga enables the practitioner to practice these Dzogchen teachings. But the Transmission must be developed through collaboration with the Dzogchen Community, such as participation in collective practices which deepen our knowledge and experience. Those interested only in receiving the Transmission as some sort of blessing and who are not interested in serious practice might prefer another path."

He did not teach every single thing in the book, but I don't recall him saying anything in particular about any specific ones that needed to be learned at a retreat or something. Perhaps that is true. I don't see how any of the practices I learned and partook in could be considered some sort of "gimmick." A gimmick to what end? What purpose could such a "gimmick" possibly serve? To impressing nobody with my ability to sit there and do something incomprehensible?
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