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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:50 pm 
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Where I differ is on the grounds of common experience. And I think illusory is a horrible world. What about mass murder is illusory? Sure, the "mind" thinks it's murdering, and "minds" think they are witnessing others dying, but it's still mass murder.


Mass Murder is illusory. So is following the path of Buddha.

Saying that "it's only mind" in no way relieves one of having to experience the causes and results of such actions. In our experience, it is not "somehow less real" if one understands the primacy of mind. Nor does the experience of the unfindability of existence obviate ethical discipline.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:22 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
In our experience, it is not "somehow less real" if one understands the primacy of mind. Nor does the experience of the unfindability of existence obviate ethical discipline.


But it's not just the issue of "mind" but "minds." There is a certain cohesiveness about common experience. For example, this very discussion: I see your words, you see mine, we have a record of what's been said and what's not been said, we can agree that we're having this discussion, etc.. If we can come to that agreement, what makes this discussion not real? How can two minds miles apart cooperate in the same illusion?

What about 9/11 is illusory?

What about 10,000 fans attending an Elton John concert is either karmic or illusory?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:41 pm 
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Sentient Beings are Illusory, too.
So is this discussion.

Nevertheless, it appears, while having no existence.
Only a Fully Enlightened Buddha can comprehend the various workings of Karma, etc., but it should be noted that this conversation, and these sentient beings, can only appear precisely because they do not exist.

If you're interested in "conventional existence," shared Karma, Etc., I suppose "Abidharama" would be the proper thing to study. It's not a primary concern of Nagarjuna.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:00 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
Sentient Beings are Illusory, too.
So is this discussion.


But that doesn't answer my question: how can two (or multiple) illusory minds participate in an illusory discussion miles apart?

I'm not asking if it is illusion; I'm asking how, if all is illusion, there can be "happenings" and consensual participation in those "happenings."

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:12 pm 
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Epistemes wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Sentient Beings are Illusory, too.
So is this discussion.


But that doesn't answer my question: how can two (or multiple) illusory minds participate in an illusory discussion miles apart?

I'm not asking if it is illusion; I'm asking how, if all is illusion, there can be "happenings" and consensual participation in those "happenings."


Ultimately nothing at all happens.

But it appears to, like people sharing a dream.

It's useful to think of the notion of "before and after analysis". Before analysis, there certainly appears to be something going on. But after a thorough analysis, nothing has been found that can be said to be real or existing. It's like a magician who cuts a lady in half - it looks like he did it, but after analysis you can see that there never was the cutting of the lady. It never happened.

If you want a good explanation, listen to Thomas Doctor's (a translator for Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche) lectures here: https://dharmasun.org/index.php?dharmas ... &flag=BUDC

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:35 pm 
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Epistemes wrote:
I'm not asking if it is illusion; I'm asking how, if all is illusion, there can be "happenings" and consensual participation in those "happenings."


I understand what you're asking, but I think it's outside the scope of this thread, and also outside the scope of what Nagarjuna is concerned with. That's why I made the Abidharma suggestion, though I'm not expert and am not even sure you fill find an adequate answer to your question.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Epistemes, in an effort to help you out, check this:

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/s-abhidham/s-abhi08.htm
This is just one page from a longer work dealing with Abhidharma, based on Pali sources, but it is applicable here....

Here are some quotes you may find helpful....

Quote:
This is what is called in philosophy a 'modal view,' a view that concentrates on the qualities of experience rather than on the essence of experience. To seek the essence of matter is to enter the world of speculation, to go beyond our empirical experience; to deal with the qualities of matter is to confine ourselves to phenomena, to experience. It is interesting to note that this modal view of matter is shared by some modern philosophers, Bertrand Russell perhaps being the best known among them. It is this modal view of reality which also informs much contemporary thought about matter. Scientists have come to recognize matter as a phenomenon, to recognize that it is impossible to arrive at the essence of matter, and this has been substantiated by the discovery of the infinite divisibility of the atom.

This modal view of reality has another important implication: Insofar as we take a purely phenomenological and experiential view of reality, of existence, the question of the external world--in the sense of a reality existing somewhere 'out there,' beyond the limit of our experience--does not arise. Insofar as the external world gives rise to the experience of matter, it is just the objective or material dimension of our experience, not an independent reality that exists in itself.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:33 am 
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Epistemes wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Sentient Beings are Illusory, too.
So is this discussion.


But that doesn't answer my question: how can two (or multiple) illusory minds participate in an illusory discussion miles apart?

I'm not asking if it is illusion; I'm asking how, if all is illusion, there can be "happenings" and consensual participation in those "happenings."


How if you make this as a new topic. I think many of us could participate or give some light on it. The problem if I can see lies on the understanding of what is illusion, why we call it illusion, why it can never be real and always illusion.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:07 am 
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Hayagriva wrote:
If you want a good explanation, listen to Thomas Doctor's (a translator for Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche) lectures here: https://dharmasun.org/index.php?dharmas ... &flag=BUDC

You will need to create a free account.


Certainly an excellent site :thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:00 pm 
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There can be "happening" because everything is empty. If things were not empty they would be frozen forever in their inherent existence in space/time.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:56 pm 
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His question is why there can be "happening" for more than one of us.......not whether it really happens, but why it seems to happen to us, such that we can have common experience......

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:38 pm 
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Well, separate mindstreams are only conventionally real.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:43 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
swampflower wrote:
However to travel further along the path and to develop true compassion it becomes important to realize the true nature of existence as dependent origination.
This does not mean that things do not exist, things rather do not exist with permanence. As the old saying goes "Nothing lasts forever".
On the other hand there is no non-existence of things, things do not vanish or are not annihilated. Rather things change as a result of the cause and effect relationship.


Well....Nagarjuna doesn't really say that.

Nagarjuna says, quite frankly, that things do not exist at all, though they seem to exist. In fact, It is precisely because "things DO vanish" or "things ARE annihilated" that they don't exist in the first place. If they did exist, they would be immune to change, for example.

The gross level of cause and effect can be seen as a continuum of change, surely. But there is a flaw in understanding that this continuum exists, when one examines on a more subtle level. There is no becoming, etc. which we can point to as a "mode of existence."


Nagarjuna observed that all the things are exist and not exist. If you attach of their empty realm then you are just a nihilist. If you attach of their form realm, then you are deluded. All things are have both form and emptiness.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 5:22 pm 
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Wow, this is an old thread you've re-animated, Username new guy....

Your interpretation is problematic, or perhaps it's just your language that I can't quite get.

"Things" don't possess form or emptiness. Maybe I'll leave it to others to answer this...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:44 pm 
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Welcome to Username 31.

There are few texts on internet by Nagarjuna about so called beyond existence-nonexistence.

We need respect for the sacred, guidance, blessings by Bodhichitta/Awaken Master.

:namaste:

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:36 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
Wow, this is an old thread you've re-animated, Username new guy....

Your interpretation is problematic, or perhaps it's just your language that I can't quite get.

"Things" don't possess form or emptiness. Maybe I'll leave it to others to answer this...

Its not what i meant. Everything is both empty and not empty.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:46 pm 
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conebeckham wrote:
Wow, this is an old thread you've re-animated, Username new guy....

Your interpretation is problematic, or perhaps it's just your language that I can't quite get.

"Things" don't possess form or emptiness. Maybe I'll leave it to others to answer this...

Or not, Cone... :smile:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:13 pm 
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existence is an extreme / concept.
non-existence is an extreme / concept.

nirvana is beyond extremes. the true nature of reality is beyond concepts.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:07 pm 
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Is the middle way essentially resting in ineffable mystical paradox?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:35 pm 
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IMHO it's resting in what's completely bedrock obvious. Nothing "mystical" (ugh).

All entities are physical or abstract (obvious).
The thing that determines whether something is a physical or abstract entity is consciousness (obvious).
Therefore all entities are objects or subjects (obvious).
Therefore consciousness is the root of subjects and objects (obvious).
Therefore all entities are one taste in consciousness (obvious).
Therefore all entities are just energies in experience (obvious).
Therefore nothing can be distinguished from the milieu (obvious).
Therefore consciousness has no boundaries (obvious).
Therefore consciousness is non-finite (obvious).
Therefore consciousness is unfindable (obvious).
Therefore consciousness has no essence (obvious).
Therefore there is no consciousness (obvious).

The reason we can't sustain knowledge of this obvious reality is because we are habituated to build complex constructs and stories and become addicted to and lost in them (obvious).
Therefore anything constructed is a self (obvious).
Therefore the way to free ourselves from the process of habituation is to see the selves are like dreams (obvious).

I wish obvious were simple.

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