Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

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Sherab
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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby Sherab » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:23 am


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Sherab
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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby Sherab » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:15 am

Am having second thoughts.

Dependent existences are illusory but dependent arising is not. This is because if dependent arising is illusory, it does not exist. If it does not exist, ie. non-functional, then pure phenomena (appearances not tainted by ignorance) would not be possible.

While dependent arising is not illusory, causality is. Causality is what drives the world of impure phenomena.

Does this make sense to anyone?

Andrew108
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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby Andrew108 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:23 am

If the nature of things is not to be found in themselves then they are empty of any defining characteristics. If they are empty of defining characteristics but appear then we can say they are illusion-like. If there is no ignorance as to the true nature of things then there is no causality. Causality is posited as a relative truth in that it is based in the ignorance of beings who take things to have an abiding nature and who are mistaken as to the true nature of things. In short causality is what dualism smells like. Dependent arising and causality are the same thing.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.

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Sherab
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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby Sherab » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:40 am

Perhaps I am splitting hairs, but I feel that dependent arising is not the same as causality.

Dependent arising is a mechanism that can explain the arising of phenomena without the need to invoke cause and effect and therefore the issue of infinite regression. The closest equivalent I can think of is "bootstrapping" mechanism.

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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby Epistemes » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:54 am

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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby el_chupacabra » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:16 am


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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby swampflower » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:34 am

I will ask all to really get real.
Did you see that squirrel? well whether you saw it or not had no effect whatsoever on the squirrel's existence.
We cannot dismiss existence. Otherwise we would not be here to discuss existence.
There is no reason to fear existence.
The path only exists because we do exist.
Relax and come to the non constructed uncontrived view of existence. the non view. the un viewed the true reality that does truly not have reality. and relax
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā

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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby swampflower » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:18 am

May we once more go to the root teaching of our Buddha Siddhārtha Gautama Shakyamuni Buddha in this present time.
The Four Nobel Truths.
suffering exists
How will one refute any existence when the Buddha said that suffering exists
Here one must realize that this existence is not immutable or some inherent condition
Buddha has understood that there are causes to suffering
we must ask then where do these causes arise for without these causes then there could be no suffering
so there may be an end to suffering if the causes of suffering are not caused
suffering will naturally end without the conditions and causes that allow suffering to arise
so suffering may end
the Buddha has revealed that there is no inherent suffering
further the buddha has revealed the path to end suffering
we are not left blind on the path
the brilliant light of the Buddha is unquenchable
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā

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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby swampflower » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:38 am

Buddha nature
if anything exists let it be this
ha ha just kidding
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:31 am

I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby Epistemes » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:15 pm

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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby el_chupacabra » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:13 pm


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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby conebeckham » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:30 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby Epistemes » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:40 pm

Last edited by Epistemes on Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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conebeckham
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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby conebeckham » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:53 pm

The point is that we cannot directly know "an object," water, for example....aside from through the contents and experience of mind.

Madhyamika, and Dharma in general, is not concerned, really, with the "mode of existence of the 'external' world, despite the hundreds of thousands of words that seem to deal with precisely this issue.

The point of Madhyamika, and Dharma in general, is to alleviate suffering in the short term and bring forth Buddhahood in the long term. In order to do so, it addresses our experiences, and our minds, but it's not interested in being a "physical science." Simply put, Madhyamika and Nagarjuna do not assert any sort of existence to objects, or to mind, either. There are appearances, and experiences, and there is no denying any of this, but that is as far as Nagarjuna is willing to go, with respect to "objects," and the so-called "Conventional Truth." It should be noted that Nagarjuna does NOT say that "external objects are mind." With respect to "common experience," this is due to (illusory) common Karma of (illusory) sentient beings.


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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conebeckham
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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby conebeckham » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:02 pm



"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby el_chupacabra » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:17 pm


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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby Epistemes » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:28 pm

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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby el_chupacabra » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:37 pm


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Re: Benefits of Nagarjuna / Dangers of Existence & Non-Existence

Postby Epistemes » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:44 pm

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