Completion of the path of Tögal

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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby heart » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:03 am

pemasomething wrote:Rob and Rachel Olds' teacher was Lama Drimed Norbu, who is Chagdud Rinpoche's Dzogchen heir. This is a fact.


Yes, I heard that from a lot of people that are very well connected. I also heard that Lama Drimed laughed at them when they said they completed the path of Tögal and said he doubted they even got Trechö right, can you confirm this to?

/magnus
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Andrew108 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:09 am

This unfortunately is what happens when practitioners haven't stabilized the view. This is a case of fixating and it has very negative consequences.
Similar situations have happened in Tibet where practitioners have fixated on their Yidam and believed strongly in the reality of their visions.
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"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby deepbluehum » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:46 pm

I know that if you contact them with an interest in their books, they will offer you teachings. But if you ask about their guru you will not get any further reply emails. Clearly they are not in good standing with their teacher or there was a falling out.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Yontan » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:47 am

Yeshe Lama is not at all the only text describing the conduct of yogis. These guys strike me as very nice hippies who spent a little too much time staring at LED's. Maybe they can bring some people to the Dharma, or at least refrain from killing people. These days that's a pretty good run.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby thinley paljor » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:37 am

In my "book" anyone who doesn't clearly identify and acknowledge their Lineage Teachers is suspicious. The great Teachers consistently identify they got such and such a Transmission from such and such a Lineage Holder so i don't see why these guys wouldn't.
No doubt they experienced something . Would a qualified Teacher validate that as Thogyal ?...big doubt
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby thinley paljor » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:59 am

On second thought maybe they did had some experience of Thogyal but would a qualified master say they had realized (i.e. stabilized and made irreversible) Thogyal, big doubt.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:48 am

They thought they completed the fourth vision, but they did not. Their visions were real Thogal visions. But they mistook the end of the third vision for the end of the forth. Thus they did not realize emptiness, and their subtle conceptual grasping has, in my opinion, led to a regression and infection by Mara. Their situation is very dangerous and a cautionary tale. The lesson is never doubt your teacher, because he counseled them not to leave retreat.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby muni » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:02 am

A nang pa learns: not "they" but own state of mind.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pero » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:40 am

deepbluehum wrote:They thought they completed the fourth vision, but they did not. Their visions were real Thogal visions. But they mistook the end of the third vision for the end of the forth. Thus they did not realize emptiness, and their subtle conceptual grasping has, in my opinion, led to a regression and infection by Mara. Their situation is very dangerous and a cautionary tale. The lesson is never doubt your teacher, because he counseled them not to leave retreat.

You mean the second maybe. If they had ended the third they'd be on their way to rainbow body at death.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby username » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:50 am

It is naive and absurd to say confidently they completed the third vision or validating their experiences as genuine thogal visions from afar in cyberspace is a complete misunderstanding of Dzogchen. All sorts of experiences and classes of beings can arise and though possible I very much doubt either of these business people who are fallen and fugitives from their lineage masters ever reached even the beginnings of the first vision.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Malcolm » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:36 pm

username wrote:It is naive and absurd to say confidently they completed the third vision or validating their experiences as genuine thogal visions from afar in cyberspace is a complete misunderstanding of Dzogchen. All sorts of experiences and classes of beings can arise and though possible I very much doubt either of these business people who are fallen and fugitives from their lineage masters ever reached even the beginnings of the first vision.



In fact, the Old's had their experiences confirmed by their teacher, Lama Drimed, up to the second vision. But they mistakenly concluded they were finished with the four visions when they had not actually finished the second vision, or so the story runs. Then there was a disagreement and they left Lama Drimed after having spend nine years in retreat.

At this point, apparently, they do not even consider themselves Buddhists, and perhaps never did.

N
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby heart » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:52 pm

Namdrol wrote:
username wrote:It is naive and absurd to say confidently they completed the third vision or validating their experiences as genuine thogal visions from afar in cyberspace is a complete misunderstanding of Dzogchen. All sorts of experiences and classes of beings can arise and though possible I very much doubt either of these business people who are fallen and fugitives from their lineage masters ever reached even the beginnings of the first vision.



In fact, the Old's had their experiences confirmed by their teacher, Lama Drimed, up to the second vision. But they mistakenly concluded they were finished with the four visions when they had not actually finished the second vision, or so the story runs. Then there was a disagreement and they left Lama Drimed after having spend nine years in retreat.

At this point, apparently, they do not even consider themselves Buddhists, and perhaps never did.

N


I don't get it, Lama Drimed is capable of leading other people on that level?

/magnus
"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Malcolm » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:02 pm

heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
username wrote:It is naive and absurd to say confidently they completed the third vision or validating their experiences as genuine thogal visions from afar in cyberspace is a complete misunderstanding of Dzogchen. All sorts of experiences and classes of beings can arise and though possible I very much doubt either of these business people who are fallen and fugitives from their lineage masters ever reached even the beginnings of the first vision.



In fact, the Old's had their experiences confirmed by their teacher, Lama Drimed, up to the second vision. But they mistakenly concluded they were finished with the four visions when they had not actually finished the second vision, or so the story runs. Then there was a disagreement and they left Lama Drimed after having spend nine years in retreat.

At this point, apparently, they do not even consider themselves Buddhists, and perhaps never did.

N


I don't get it, Lama Drimed is capable of leading other people on that level?

/magnus



Yes. He has a number of people in retreat under his guidance doing the main practices of Dzogchen.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby username » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:23 pm

Namdrol wrote:
username wrote:It is naive and absurd to say confidently they completed the third vision or validating their experiences as genuine thogal visions from afar in cyberspace is a complete misunderstanding of Dzogchen. All sorts of experiences and classes of beings can arise and though possible I very much doubt either of these business people who are fallen and fugitives from their lineage masters ever reached even the beginnings of the first vision.



In fact, the Old's had their experiences confirmed by their teacher, Lama Drimed, up to the second vision. But they mistakenly concluded they were finished with the four visions when they had not actually finished the second vision, or so the story runs. Then there was a disagreement and they left Lama Drimed after having spend nine years in retreat.

At this point, apparently, they do not even consider themselves Buddhists, and perhaps never did.

N


Unbelievable, the first vision and they dared assume they had finished and even fought the guru. We know worse things happened in the last 1000 years too. Thanks. Is the 9th bhumi beyond falling?
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby deepbluehum » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:22 pm

username wrote:It is naive and absurd to say confidently they completed the third vision or validating their experiences as genuine thogal visions from afar in cyberspace is a complete misunderstanding of Dzogchen. All sorts of experiences and classes of beings can arise and though possible I very much doubt either of these business people who are fallen and fugitives from their lineage masters ever reached even the beginnings of the first vision.


My information doesn't come from cyberspace. I've actually heard three different versions of this. In one, they didn't reach the first vision. Second, they reached the second. And third, they reached the third. I was being a diplomatic as possible. At any rate, they have not completed the path of Thogal, wrathful one.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Malcolm » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:02 pm

username wrote:Is the 9th bhumi beyond falling?


Eighth bhumi on up are irreversible
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Kai » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:02 pm

Namdrol wrote:
username wrote:Is the 9th bhumi beyond falling?


Eighth bhumi on up are irreversible


I second that........... :thumbsup:
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby padma norbu » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:17 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:Not sure what to make of this couple...

On a sidenote, apparently Batman is a togal practitioner too: http://thelostyak.com/2010/02/25/the-co ... oes-togal/


Thank you, I was able to learn more about Togal from that blog about batman than anyone on this board or anywhere else has been willing to share. :)
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby padma norbu » Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:31 pm

Pero wrote:One of the things that annoy me to no end it when people say "oh but who was Buddha's teacher?" or something like that. For millenia it has been practiced that students learned from teachers and now the almighty John Doe's can do without? Even if Buddha and Garab Dorje had had no teachers, it's incredibly arrogant to think we're their equals. Though perhaps years back I might not have thought so either, I now see it's generally pretty stupid to think otherwise.

I don't know, there's something open-minded and optimistic about it. Kinda like a child who says he wants to grow up to be a famous actor. You're the parental figure that squashes dreams by throwing concepts of "possible" onto the backs of innocents. I rely on teachers, but in my heart I know it is all up to me, so in a way it really does all boil down to what one can achieve for himself through various kinds of awareness.

Also, we are told that Siddhartha was a "display" Nirmanakaya Buddha. It seems like people, often knowledgeable ones, even, pick and choose what they want to believe. We have people here who don't think much of the tulku system and of course everyone seems to feel the particular yana they are involved in is the correct one, more or less discounting the opinions of those following other paths who feel theirs is superior. Knowing all this, does the idea of a "display" emanation really pass the sniff test given Siddhartha's life story? How about his immaculate conception? I don't know about all that. What I do know for sure is there was a guy who lived and taught and that he discovered on his own and founded a new tradition here on earth.
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Re: Completion of the path of Tögal

Postby Pero » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:53 pm

padma norbu wrote:
Pero wrote:One of the things that annoy me to no end it when people say "oh but who was Buddha's teacher?" or something like that. For millenia it has been practiced that students learned from teachers and now the almighty John Doe's can do without? Even if Buddha and Garab Dorje had had no teachers, it's incredibly arrogant to think we're their equals. Though perhaps years back I might not have thought so either, I now see it's generally pretty stupid to think otherwise.

I don't know, there's something open-minded and optimistic about it. Kinda like a child who says he wants to grow up to be a famous actor. You're the parental figure that squashes dreams by throwing concepts of "possible" onto the backs of innocents. I rely on teachers, but in my heart I know it is all up to me, so in a way it really does all boil down to what one can achieve for himself through various kinds of awareness.

Well I don't know about optimism but the simple reality is that we wouldn't even know how to wipe our own asses after taking a dump without someone teaching us first. Of course after someone shows us how to do it, it's totally up to us to wipe our asses clean or walk around with shit smeared on our underwear.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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