Delusion

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Re: Delusion

Postby devilyoudont » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:55 pm

Namdrol wrote:It states it to be the case in the Abhisamayaalaṃkara, and other Mahāyāna texts, as opposed to a sixteen moment path of seeing proposed in Abhidharma kosha.

N

:anjali:

Thanks, I accept that as a legitimate source.
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Re: Delusion

Postby Virgo » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:07 pm

Namdrol wrote:
It states it to be the case in the Abhisamayaalaṃkara, and other Mahāyāna texts, as opposed to a sixteen moment path of seeing proposed in Abhidharma kosha.

N




Loppon, in Abhidharma kosha, are path moments mentioned? If so do these consist of 16 actual consecutive moments? Or would the path moment be just one moment in a mind door process series of sixteen moments, each other moment in the series performing it's own separate function?

I may be off base here because I am comparing what I have learned in the Theravada Abhidhamma to what you have said above. However, even "path moment" maybe be understood very differently in the Abhidharma kosha, I'm not sure. I would really like to know more.

Thank you,

Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Delusion

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:31 pm

devilyoudont wrote: Anything can preclude everything else if you let it. Ultimately, it can even preclude itself.

nonsense.

devilyoudont wrote: Do you have direct perception of my direct perception

not needed
devilyoudont wrote: and do you perceive that yours is in fact perception as opposed to say, faith or touchy feely intuition?

I am not sure what you are saying.

devilyoudont wrote:
Are you aware that it's this sort of statements that promote bypassing free inquiry and individual conviction in favor of soulless consensus-building?


I don't see how it promotes that, but I will agree with the soulless part.

devilyoudont wrote: Do you wish, for whatever reason, that my words outwardly conformed with yours?


I don't care if they do or not, I was just answering your questions.
But if you are granting wishes, then I wish that you would clarify what you are talking about.

devilyoudont wrote: I do not perceive that instantaneity or any other alternative cannot preclude everything else. Why pick on poor old gradation? Or suddenness for that matter?


who is picking on anything?
devilyoudont wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:So, even if you have a sudden realization or attainment, even if it isn't slowly pried open like a can of paint, you can't dismiss all of the events in your life which contributed to it..

Of the being or non-being who has awakened, you mean to say? From the perspective of the beginner?

I have no idea what you are asking, but I stand by what I say.

Instead of trying to draw logic circles, just look at your own experience.
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Re: Delusion

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:40 pm

Awakening does not depend on either gradual or spontaneous, because then it would be conditional.
.
.
.
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Re: Delusion

Postby Virgo » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:07 am

Loppon, in Abhidharma kosha, are path moments mentioned? If so do these consist of 16 actual consecutive moments? Or would the path moment be just one moment in a mind door process series of sixteen moments, each other moment in the series performing it's own separate function?

I may be off base here because I am comparing what I have learned in the Theravada Abhidhamma to what you have said above. However, even "path moment" maybe be understood very differently in the Abhidharma kosha, I'm not sure. I would really like to know more.

Thank you,

Kevin

OK it seems in the Sarvastivada Abhidharma it is 15 moments and then one moment that reviews. Different from the Theravada Abhidhamma where one single moment is a path moment and then there are either two are three fruition (reviewing moments) that follow, depending on whether has used mundane dhyana as a basis for insight or not.

Kevin
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Re: Delusion

Postby Malcolm » Sun Sep 11, 2011 2:01 pm

Hi, it is sixteen consecutive mental cognitions through the four noble truths.

N


Virgo wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
It states it to be the case in the Abhisamayaalaṃkara, and other Mahāyāna texts, as opposed to a sixteen moment path of seeing proposed in Abhidharma kosha.

N




Loppon, in Abhidharma kosha, are path moments mentioned? If so do these consist of 16 actual consecutive moments? Or would the path moment be just one moment in a mind door process series of sixteen moments, each other moment in the series performing it's own separate function?

I may be off base here because I am comparing what I have learned in the Theravada Abhidhamma to what you have said above. However, even "path moment" maybe be understood very differently in the Abhidharma kosha, I'm not sure. I would really like to know more.

Thank you,

Kevin
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Re: Delusion

Postby Virgo » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:Hi, it is sixteen consecutive mental cognitions through the four noble truths.

N




I understand. Thank you Loppon.

The descriptions are actually probably very similar, though I don't know. In Theravada the path moment refers specifically to one congnition that performs the function of uprooting or abandoning afflictions. Nirvana is its' object. The phala moments follow directly afterwards (two or three chittas) and they too cognize nirvana but the afflictions (which afflictions of course depend on whether it is sotapatti magga, sakadagami magga, anagami magga or Arahatta magga) have already been dispelled at that point. The approaching moments and so on where prajna understands the 4 NT deeper and deeper, in the same process, before the magga and phala moments arise are not counted as "path moments".

It may be quite similar in the Kosa, with slight differences, but that the approaching moments and the reviewing and so on -- a process of 16 moments - are all lumped together as "the path". Or perhaps it's different. I don't know.

Would you care to explain the 16 moments and their individual functions a little bit deeper?

Understanding the kosha certainly doesn't hurt me.

Kevin
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Re: Delusion

Postby devilyoudont » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:57 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:nonsense.

It sure can be, if you let it. Eg. I only accepted Namdrol's thesis that awakening is instantaneous once its philosophical context had been stated unambiguously.

Thanks for the answers.

:anjali:
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Re: Delusion

Postby DarwidHalim » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:02 am

devilyoudont wrote:If cessation is spontaneous, what practice can bring you enlightenment?

If cessation is gradual, what practice CAN'T bring you enlightenment?


Cessation is not spontaneous nor gradual. It is natural (automatically).
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Re: Delusion

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:23 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Awakening does not depend on either gradual or spontaneous, because then it would be conditional.
.
.
.


It is conditional.

Emptiness contained in karma, karma contained in emptiness. Emptiness from karma, karma from emptiness. Both.
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