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Vipassana - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

Vipassana

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
ashkenn
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:09 am

Re: Vipassana

Postby ashkenn » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:50 am

((You allow it to grow by not shaving it. You feed the body with nutrients, part of which are responcible for beard to grow.

So you do set conditions for it to grow.))

When you do set, there is already an I that has arisen to set on it. When "I" arisen, there is miccha ditthi and that is aksuala. Understanding is not about I doing this or that, it is about understanding the nature of our present experience and understand it as anatta. So when you enter this forum and likes to know more about dhamma, that is condition by panna or faith of Buddha dhamma. that panna or faith will condition chanda and cetana and then you act accordingly.

If you think I must intentionally or purposely go to the web to learn dhamma, that is craving for panna. If you just thought of it and natrually without any other thoughts of intentionally or purposedly do it, then that is faith or panna that condition it and not cravings. It is very subtle difference but a difficult subtle difference to understand. No one can force dhamma because it is anatta. One could consider dhamma and considering dhamma is not book study. Considering of dhamma will condition you to act or will accordingly.


cheers
KC

Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:55 am


ashkenn
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Re: Vipassana

Postby ashkenn » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:26 pm

((Your argument seems inwardly flawed. You say "One could consider Dhamma" how would one do this, if you had not had the desire to hear the Dhamma in the first place? Magic? You are almost implying that the decision to learn/acquire Dhamma/panna, has to be an occurence, outside of dependent origination. The following sutta shows that the Buddha was a straight forward teacher, who knew that craving for the ending of suffering was the spur for the Noble search.))

KO: Dependent origination originates from ignorance and craving. What the sutta shows that this nun is infatuated with Ven Ananda and Ven Ananda explain to the nun on the danger of cravings. The nun at the end of the sutta confess her faults. Hence craving even to see another exalted person is unwholesome for the sake of knowing more dhamma.

Faith is on of the factor in conditon one to listen to the dhamma. Pse see MN 70
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/M ... /mn-70.htm

<<Bhikkhus, I do not convince of perfection right at the beginning. It is a gradual ascent, with gradual training, action, and follow up. Bhikkhus, how does the conviction of perfection come about with gradual training, action, and follow up? Bhikkhus, someone approaches when faith is born. Then he associates. Associating lends ear. Listening bears the Teaching. Bearing the Teaching examines the meanings. Examining the meanings some conviction arises. Pleased with that conviction an interest arises for the Teaching. With interest there is effort. With that effort there is weighing. Weighing realizes the highest truth with the body, and wisely penetrates it.

Bhikkhus, without faith, there is no approach. Without the approach there is no association. Without association there is no lending ear. Without lending ear there is no listening, Without listening, the Teaching is not borne in the mind. Without bearing the Teaching there is no examining of the meanings. Without an examination, there is no conviction. Without a conviction, there is no interest. Without an interest, there is no effort. Without effort there is no discrimination. Without discrimination there is no weighing. Without weighing, there is no confrontation. Those gone astray are on the wrong track. Bhikkhus, the foolish, not interested in this dispensation of Teaching, how far have they strayed?. >>

If you like to discuss the sutta you quoted, I am most delighted. If you wish to discuss Dependent Origination, I am also be very glad

Cheers
KC (aka Ken O)

Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:59 pm


ashkenn
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Re: Vipassana

Postby ashkenn » Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:00 pm

((How would you define "conidering the Dhamma"?

Even before faith arises, the disciple has had to have had a report of the teacher or teaching - he develops - confidence - he visits etc. It is a beginning of the path, that is still rooted within dependent origination and hopefully will take one through transcendental origination.))

KO: considering dhamma is to understand dhamma when it arise is not self at the present moment. Now we cannot know the first arisen of faith or panna, just like we do not know the first arisen of ignorance.

Faith could arise due to a few reasons, a chance to read dhamma books. Others eg; one question life and search for an answer, and then meet dhamma or a wise person who explain dhamma etc. Thereafter, when one read, investigate one's read and have confidence of the text, faith arises.

One will be rooted in samasara as long as craving is not extinguished, ignorance is not eradicated. the 4NT shows also that craving is the cause of the mass of suffering just like in D.O. That does not mean one cannot esapce from it. The escape is the 8NP in the 4NT. D.O. shows that it is just conditions, there is no self involved in the whole process. Considering dhamma is to develop right view of that dhamma arise and fall due to conditions, there is no self in dhamma or in D.O

Cheers
Ken O

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Alex123
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Re: Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:35 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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BlackBird
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Vipassana

Postby BlackBird » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:46 pm

I guess my questions Brizzy, are: Have you ever practiced Vipassana under an experienced teacher before? What are your grounds to challenge the efficacy of the Vissudhimagga and Goenka based systems?

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:52 am


ashkenn
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Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:09 am

Re: Vipassana

Postby ashkenn » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:43 pm

<<The same can be said about studying and considering the Dhamma>>
Definitely when we study and consider dhamma, there is a action or do. We are not denying the do part. We are saying we cannot go and purposedly control cittas. The nature of the citta will continue to rise and fall, because dhamma is anatta. Just like we cannot wish not to grow old, we will still grow old.

<<This is what a proper meditation should be for. To learn about anatta and presently arisen namarupa.>>
What is proper meditation? Are you comtemplating the rise and fall or fixing on an object. We have to clear about it. Also we do not need meditation for understanding of nama and rupa, it could be understood even when you type your email. Meditation could be translated from the word bhavana or jhanas or samadhi. Each of this word means differently in Pali and application is also different.


<<This is how meditation should be done. Without any false idea of control or expectations.>>
That is correct but do we know what is not control or expectations. Your earlier email is not consistent with this email ((So you do set conditions for it to grow.)) I may interpret wrongly, you may like to tell me more? If we do not have clear comprehension of dhamma, we cannot do meditation. The danger is that we may unconsciousnessly taking pleasant feeling or indifference feeling that arise with meditation as meditation.

Cheers
Ken O

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Alex123
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Re: Vipassana

Postby Alex123 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:50 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Vipassana

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Mar 22, 2010 6:30 pm

i would suggest the anapanasati sutta as the answer to the question of what proper meditation is.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Kenshou
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Re: Vipassana

Postby Kenshou » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:09 pm


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retrofuturist
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Vipassana

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:12 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:59 am


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Ben
Posts: 18442
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Location: kanamaluka

Re: Vipassana

Postby Ben » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:25 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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bodom
Posts: 5713
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
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Re: Vipassana

Postby bodom » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:37 am

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Vipassana

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:45 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Brizzy

Re: Vipassana

Postby Brizzy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:46 am


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jcsuperstar
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Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska
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Re: Vipassana

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:19 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

ashkenn
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:09 am

Re: Vipassana

Postby ashkenn » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:28 pm

<<Proper meditation is non-conceptually being aware of presently changing flow of namarupa. Even if one does anapanasati, it is still done with the awareness of changing namarupa. With more and more close observation of changing namarupa, one is able to see it more clearer and in greater detail. The direct experiential knowledge gained, little by little, will change the natural behaviour of the mind (make it less distracted, etc).

Does that answer your questions?>>

KO: No, you are mixing up the practise. The preliminary stage is fixing on the breath, breath in long and short. It is always said that after fixing on the breath, one attains jhanas. Then the jhanas is a basis for insight which is the understanding of nama and rupa. You think you are ready to do breathing meditation?


Cheers
Ken O


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