Andrew108 wrote:Thanks for the replies so far but I would rather not turn this into a debate about NDE's or in fact about whether consciousness is material or not. Lets assume that consciousness has a non-material base that is some how tied to a material conditioning factor (the brain). The point here is this: how far can we move away from the brain as a conditioning factor in our experiences in order to get at our real nature? In what sense can an experience be genuine or realization be genuine and trusted if only ever understood perceptually?
If our basic nature is like space then space pervades even the brain. But in what sense does this basic space have authentic awareness within it - awareness that is not just perceptual? Integrating into the experience in a non-dual way (the presence of GY for instance) can mean doing something in the brain or letting the brain relax - so how is it a genuine experience? Where does brain-based presence stop and space-based presence start?
Sönam wrote:About, in his last teaching, ChNN said : "Mind is not in the head, but office of mind is in the head"
muni wrote:Dual-nondual. If we can talk about a genuine experience it is a talk about.
Andrew108 wrote: in that buddhas don't have a brain.
Namdrol wrote:Really? The Buddha had no brain?
Andrew108 wrote:Namdrol wrote:Really? The Buddha had no brain?
And Buddha Amitahba's brain is where?
Andrew108 wrote:Any type of buddha.
Hayagriva wrote:The last retreat I was on with Tsoknyi Rinpoche had one of his students, who is a neuroscientist, explain her resaerch on Dzogchen meditation and the brain..
Hayagriva wrote:The hypothalamus is involved in the filtering of sensory data and the data showed that the sensory floodgates were basically widely open.
. His enlightenment was not brain-based. Also all of the tantras etc have not been transmitted by 'beings with brains'. Interesting.Namdrol wrote:I am pretty sure that Sakyamuni had a brain, just like he had a heart, lungs, liver, spleen, kidney, etc.
Andrew108 wrote:His enlightenment was not brain-based.
AlexanderS wrote:The 16th karmapa could teach meditation to birds. Apparantly Thaye Dorje has also demonstrated this.
I honestly think some birds are more advanced meditators than I am
Point being, a bird with it's little brain can enter a state of samadhi apparrantly.
Namdrol wrote:Andrew108 wrote:His enlightenment was not brain-based.
The Hevajra Tantra states the following:
“This yoga of the completion stage,The Bhagavan replied:
its bliss is called great bliss,
completion is not a meditation,
so why do creation?”
“Incredible, the great bodhisattva
has lost the power of faith.
Where does bliss come from without the existence of the body?
Such a bliss cannot be spoken of.
Bliss pervades all migrating beings
in the form of pervaded and pervader;
just as the fragrance present in a flower,
cannot be known without the flower’s existence.
In the same way, since form and so on won’t exist,
also bliss itself won’t be perceived.
The Vajrayāna view of awakening is that awakening is very much based in the body as this passage from the Hevajra Tantra shows. The key to awakening in Vajrayāna in general is embodiment. The mind/matter dualism (ala Decartes) we find in sutra is superceded in Vajrayāna, that is the key to why Vajrayāna is more rapid.
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