Is Zen Rational?

Is Zen Rational?

Yes
9
56%
No
7
44%
 
Total votes: 16

ajax
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Is Zen Rational?

Postby ajax » Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:54 am

I mean no disrespect with this simple poll question. I am truly curious about how people would choose to answer.

Thanks for any participation. :namaste:

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Huifeng
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby Huifeng » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:16 am

ajax wrote:I mean no disrespect with this simple poll question. I am truly curious about how people would choose to answer.

Thanks for any participation. :namaste:


How about "Both", and "Neither / Nor"?
And then the fifth option, "None of the above"?

:namaste:

~~ Huifeng

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LastLegend
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby LastLegend » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:18 am

Rational in what way.
And not rational in what way.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

ajax
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby ajax » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:24 am

Huifeng wrote:
ajax wrote:I mean no disrespect with this simple poll question. I am truly curious about how people would choose to answer.

Thanks for any participation. :namaste:


How about "Both", and "Neither / Nor"?
And then the fifth option, "None of the above"?

:namaste:

~~ Huifeng

Isn't that a no, my friend?

ajax
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby ajax » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:26 am

LastLegend wrote:Rational in what way.
And not rational in what way.

1 based on or in accordance with reason or logic: I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation.
• (of a person) able to think clearly, sensibly, and logically: Andrea's upset—she's not being very rational.
• endowed with the capacity to reason: man is a rational being.
2 Mathematics (of a number, quantity, or expression) expressible, or containing quantities that are expressible, as a ratio of whole numbers. When expressed as a decimal, a rational number has a finite or recurring expansion.

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Virgo
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby Virgo » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:42 am

deleted
Last edited by Virgo on Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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LastLegend
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby LastLegend » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:52 am

ajax wrote:
LastLegend wrote:Rational in what way.
And not rational in what way.

1 based on or in accordance with reason or logic: I'm sure there's a perfectly rational explanation.
• (of a person) able to think clearly, sensibly, and logically: Andrea's upset—she's not being very rational.
• endowed with the capacity to reason: man is a rational being.
2 Mathematics (of a number, quantity, or expression) expressible, or containing quantities that are expressible, as a ratio of whole numbers. When expressed as a decimal, a rational number has a finite or recurring expansion.


1)Zen is rational
2)If experience can be quantified through mathematics, then Zen is rational
Last edited by LastLegend on Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

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LastLegend
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Location: Washington DC

Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby LastLegend » Sun Sep 18, 2011 6:53 am

Virgo wrote:
Huifeng wrote:
ajax wrote:I mean no disrespect with this simple poll question. I am truly curious about how people would choose to answer.

Thanks for any participation. :namaste:


How about "Both", and "Neither / Nor"?
And then the fifth option, "None of the above"?

:namaste:

~~ Huifeng

How about mind is mind?

Kevin


What is mind?
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Bodhidharma [my translation]
―I come to the East to transmit this clear knowing mind without constructing any dharma―

Josef
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby Josef » Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:01 am

No.

desertman001
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby desertman001 » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:22 pm

If our true nature is unbounded, unchanging, formless Mind, the same before birth as after death, then zen is perfectly rational.

alwayson
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby alwayson » Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:30 pm

What is the motivation for this thread?

I hope that "ajax" is not conflating Zen with all of Buddhism.

ajax
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby ajax » Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:15 pm

alwayson wrote:I hope that "ajax" is not conflating Zen with all of Buddhism.

No worries.

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Quiet Heart
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby Quiet Heart » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:18 am

:shrug:
The question is basicaly unanswerable, the presumption in the question, that Zen must be either logical or not logical is flawed.
In fact the true answer is....both Yes and No.
Up to a point Zen can be taught logically, until the student comes up against the limits of logical teaching. If the student is to go further on in his/her study....to "enlightenment", "realization", "understanding" ...or whatever you want to call it...the student must be forced out of that logical viewpoint and into a non-logical place where he/she can then see clearly outside of a logical perspective. Only then can the student see clearly and achieve that "realization".
That's why the real anser to the question is: Niether one or the other.
Or to put it another way, both "logical" and "non-logical" are only meaningless terms.... verbal ILLUSIONS generated by the mind....and have no inherent self-existant reality.
(slaps your face).
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach

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catmoon
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby catmoon » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:47 am

I can't see any other answer to the OP than "sometimes". Zen practioners sit on cushions, not wild camels. Basically the reason is pretty rational, but I doubt the practice of sitting on cushions was derived from a process of logical analysis.
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.

ajax
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby ajax » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:22 am

hello catmoon

catmoon wrote:I doubt the practice of sitting on cushions was derived from a process of logical analysis.

I also doubt the practice of zazen was derived from a process of logical analysis. However the question of how the practice was derived is a different question.

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kirtu
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby kirtu » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:26 am

Zen is rational, but it is not linear and it is not bound by logic.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

ajax
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:48 am

Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby ajax » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:26 am

Quiet Heart wrote::shrug:
The question is basicaly unanswerable, the presumption in the question, that Zen must be either logical or not logical is flawed.
In fact the true answer is....both Yes and No.
Up to a point Zen can be taught logically, until the student comes up against the limits of logical teaching. If the student is to go further on in his/her study....to "enlightenment", "realization", "understanding" ...or whatever you want to call it...the student must be forced out of that logical viewpoint and into a non-logical place where he/she can then see clearly outside of a logical perspective. Only then can the student see clearly and achieve that "realization".
That's why the real anser to the question is: Niether one or the other.
Or to put it another way, both "logical" and "non-logical" are only meaningless terms.... verbal ILLUSIONS generated by the mind....and have no inherent self-existant reality.
(slaps your face).
:smile:

hello Quiet Heart

I can appreciate what you say and have no objections. However, if what you say is true you must know how Zen is taught logically. How is Zen taught logically?

ajax
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:48 am

Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby ajax » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:31 am

kirtu wrote:Zen is rational, but it is not linear and it is not bound by logic.

Kirt

Hello Kirt

Can you possibly elaborate? How can Zen be rational if it is not bound by logic or reasoning?

StuartM
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby StuartM » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:04 am

I think it is rational, as much as any other form of Buddhism

And, I don't think we should necessarily conflate non-discursive with being illogical.
Last edited by StuartM on Mon Sep 19, 2011 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Astus
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Re: Is Zen Rational?

Postby Astus » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:48 am

Is being rational Zen? Is being irrational Zen? Of course not. Can Zen be rationalised or "irrationalised"? Definitely. So it is not something but can be made into anything, such is the magic of mind. Zen can be presented in any way it is needed, that's the primary approach Zen has. That is quite a rational attitude that understands dependent origination and how to assist people in seeing the nature of mind, i.e. perceiving that ideas such as rationality and irrationality depend on each other without any real basis.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"


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