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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:25 pm 
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Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Neither what I said nor secret refuge is a "method" since nothing in dzogchen is causal. The path in dzogchen is not based on causality, but on lhundrub, sponteneity. Rigpa sees that even the stains, confusions and obscurations of samsara were always katak, pure, and lhundrub, perfect, because nirvana and samsara are both of the nature of the Base and the Base always and forever has been katak and lhundrub.



No, this is actually not correct. In order for there to be samsara in the basis, there must be ignorance in the basis. But there isn't. This is why it is said that basis is originally pure [ka dag]. The Rosary of Pearls tantra states:

    The mere term delusion cannot be described
    within the original purity of the initial state,
    likewise, how can there be non-delusion?
    Therefore, pure of delusion from the beginning.


What you have presented above is a common mahamudra misunderstanding of what "basis" means in Dzogchen.

What you describe is the kun gzhi [ālaya] of the Mahāmudra teachings, not the "gzhi" (sthana) of Dogchen teachings.


:namaste: Unfortunately I know nothing about mahamudra. Ok, now: what I am understanding from this is that I can't say that nirvana and samsara are in the base since the base is empty of both wisdom and confusion from the start - is that more or less correct?


What exists in the basis is the three wisdoms of the basis, essence, nature and compassion.

Ignorance has never existed in the basis, per se. Therefore, it is inappropriate to state that either samsara or nirvana have existed or will ever exist in the basis. Ignorance (ma rig pa) means not knowing what the basis is. RIg pa is knowing (rig pa) what the basis is. Realization means becoming integrated with that knowledge.

Original purity means that there has never been a time when the basis was ever stained in anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:31 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
What exists in the basis is the three wisdoms of the basis, essence, nature and compassion.

Ignorance has never existed in the basis, per se. Therefore, it is inappropriate to state that either samsara or nirvana have existed or will ever exist in the basis. Ignorance (ma rig pa) means not knowing what the basis is. RIg pa is knowing (rig pa) what the basis is. Realization means becoming integrated with that knowledge.

Original purity means that there has never been a time when the basis was ever stained in anyway.


:namaste: Thank you.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:40 am 
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deepbluehum wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
To me to use "blessings" re: direct introduction is to wax mystical.


Again, you misunderstand the meaning the term blessings and how it is used in this context.




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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:48 am 
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Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
To me to use "blessings" re: direct introduction is to wax mystical.


Again, you misunderstand the meaning the term blessings and how it is used in this context.




Blessings means you met the teacher, respected him greatly, heard the teachings, found them to be precious and practiced accordingly.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:00 am 
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deepbluehum wrote:
and can be learned in a distance learning program

Any particular teacher you have in mind, buddy? Don't be shy.

deepbluehum wrote:
New Dzogchenpas frequently misinterpret

Yeah and they typically trot out their resumes too like that means anything.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:40 am 
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When you recognize the truth of what you read in a new and more powerful way. When you find yourself shaking your head in agreement as you read it: "Yes, that is how it is."

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:23 am 
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One thing that Namkhai Norbu once said that kind of made me understand what to look for somehow was about how ordinary meditation is about working with concepts, so you are tied into these concepts. He then explained that in Dzogchen, we are not working with concepts, we relax and we experience that instant presence. He then said that the ordinary way people think, as soon as they try to relax they begin to wonder "What am I supposed to do? What does he mean 'relax?' How do I relax?" and try to make into concepts again.

Like I said, somehow that pointed me in the right direction. Maybe it will for you. It is not like regular relaxation where you are just hanging out not being aware of what you are thinking from one moment to the next or hanging out and thinking about stuff pretty heavily (that would be distracted by thoughts), but if an ordinary person told you to "relax," you wouldn't overanalyze it and think "what am I supposed to do?" You would just relax and do whatever came naturally. I think, similarly, the advice you always hear from Dzogchen masters to "relax and remain in spontaneous awareness or instant presence" is very accurate but we just tend to overthink it because we don't have any overwhelming instant Buddhahood type experiences and so we completely overlook how relaxed awareness really is. If you try to sit and just relax and be aware, you will notice your mind is not chattering away and you will notice when thoughts arise. You will notice sounds appear outside at the same time they appear inside and you will notice that appearances arise constantly and there is nothing impeding your instant presence. When you are distracted by thinking, your instant presence is so close to the thoughts that it is like a crystal ball on a checkered table cloth, picking up the checkered pattern and blending right it: there is no obstruction and because of this, it is easy to lose track of the marvelous fact of instant presence in every moment. It is unimpeded and continual present awareness, always there. Without it, thinking mind would be useless. Thinking mind is like how they describe it: like a layer of mud or like dirt in your eyes, a shaken up snow globe... or like a checkered table cloth reflecting in a crystal ball, too.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 5:07 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
Original purity means that there has never been a time when the basis was ever stained in anyway.

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