Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Namdrol wrote:Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Neither what I said nor secret refuge is a "method" since nothing in dzogchen is causal. The path in dzogchen is not based on causality, but on lhundrub, sponteneity. Rigpa sees that even the stains, confusions and obscurations of samsara were always katak, pure, and lhundrub, perfect, because nirvana and samsara are both of the nature of the Base and the Base always and forever has been katak and lhundrub.
No, this is actually not correct. In order for there to be samsara in the basis, there must be ignorance in the basis. But there isn't. This is why it is said that basis is originally pure [ka dag]. The Rosary of Pearls tantra states:
The mere term delusion cannot be described
within the original purity of the initial state,
likewise, how can there be non-delusion?
Therefore, pure of delusion from the beginning.
What you have presented above is a common mahamudra misunderstanding of what "basis" means in Dzogchen.
What you describe is the kun gzhi [ālaya] of the Mahāmudra teachings, not the "gzhi" (sthana) of Dogchen teachings.
Unfortunately I know nothing about mahamudra. Ok, now: what I am understanding from this is that I can't say that nirvana and samsara are in the base since the base is empty of both wisdom and confusion from the start - is that more or less correct?
What exists in the basis is the three wisdoms of the basis, essence, nature and compassion.
Ignorance has never existed in the basis, per se. Therefore, it is inappropriate to state that either samsara or nirvana have existed or will ever exist in the basis. Ignorance (ma rig pa) means not knowing what the basis is. RIg pa is knowing (rig pa) what the basis is. Realization means becoming integrated with that knowledge.
Original purity means that there has never been a time when the basis was ever stained in anyway.