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 Post subject: tendai and zen
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:48 pm 
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a simple question - or a question that might have a simple answer...


what does tendai say about zen? i gather that it's one of their pillars or something - but how do they classify it?
thanks ever so


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 Post subject: Re: tendai and zen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:30 am 
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Hi klqv,

I don't quite understand the question... when you say "zen" are you talking about the lineage of "zen" (soto, rinzai etc) or are you talking about zazen meditation?

Gassho,
Seishin.

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 Post subject: Re: tendai and zen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Hi klqv,

Please note, I am only a lay person and still learning so the following information might not be acurate;

The main meditation practice in Tendai is Maka Shikan, which originates from Tientai (Chinese) and is believed to be the forerunner to Chan (Zen). Here is a book which outlines the practice http://www.amazon.co.uk/Essentials-Budd ... 52&sr=8-11 I'm afraid I don't know of a free copy.

There are other practices which are also utilised such as contemplation, visualisation and mantra. Please see here for contemplation practice. http://dctendai.blogspot.com/2010/07/ho ... ation.html

I'm not sure how (or if) meditation is classified in Tendai. Tendai is vast. All ordained members of the sangha have experience in most, if not, all areas of practice. However, because of the sheer size of Tendai, the average priest cannot master them all. Some choose mikkyo (mantras & rituals), some choose kaihogyo, some choose nembutsu and some choose meditation. I would guess to say that all these practices are "pillars" as Tendai views them as equal paths to enlightenment.

Some one like Jikan might have a more knowledgable answer. :smile:

Gassho,
Seishin.

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 Post subject: Re: tendai and zen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Tendai takes seated meditation very seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: tendai and zen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:21 pm 
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hmm, i don't think i understand.

i remember that email course describing samatha-vipassana differently to just sitting.


i was asking really where rinzai and soto schools figured in zhiyi's pianchao - or is that just about scripture?
also i thought that tendai taught chan [because saicho had transmission from one of the early chan schools] as something in addition to tientai meditation [i think i got this idea from the essentials of the eight traditions book, which was a library book] and esoteric practices.


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 Post subject: Re: tendai and zen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:53 pm 
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Maka (maha skt.) = great, shi = samatha, kan = vipassana. Maka shikan = maha samatha vipassana = great calming insight. This is different to the soto zen shikantaza, which is just sitting.

There are chan elements in Tendai but it's not a carbon copy of the chan/zen schools. Saicho created a new lineage in Japan, as I understand it, and that lineage has grown and changed since then.

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i was asking really where rinzai and soto schools figured in zhiyi's pianchao - or is that just about scripture?
I'm sorry, I don't understand this question.

Gassho,
Seishin.

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 Post subject: Re: tendai and zen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:10 pm 
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The Rinzai and Soto schools did not exist in the time of Zhiyi.

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 Post subject: Re: tendai and zen
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:43 pm 
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Jikan wrote:
The Rinzai and Soto schools did not exist in the time of Zhiyi.


Even in the time of Saicho they did not exist.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
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"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
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Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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 Post subject: Re: tendai and zen
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:47 am 
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The OP may have been prompted by a couple of threads that I started on the topic of "Tiantai Calming-and-Insight & Dhyāna Meditation" over at ZFI here.

Please feel free to come and join us, if you are interested. Note: It's in the Chan forum, because this text is a common basis for Chan; it is not in the Tiantai / Tendai forum.

~~ Huifeng

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 Post subject: Re: tendai and zen
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:54 pm 
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hi,


thanks for the answers... i think it is quite clear what you mean [ignoring ideas about what sort of buddhas soto and rinzai practitioners are said to be... which maybe isn't in th spirit of buddhism].



:)


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