Delusion

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Delusion

Postby devilyoudont » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:07 pm

If cessation is spontaneous, what practice can bring you enlightenment?

If cessation is gradual, what practice CAN'T bring you enlightenment?
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Re: Delusion

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:52 pm

Cessation isn't when something happens, it's when something stops happening.
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The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Delusion

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:09 pm

devilyoudont wrote:If cessation is spontaneous, what practice can bring you enlightenment?

If cessation is gradual, what practice CAN'T bring you enlightenment?


Cessation is not spontaneous since it is the absence of a cause.

Cessation is not gradual since it is the absence of a cause.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Delusion

Postby devilyoudont » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:Cessation is not spontaneous since it is the absence of a cause.

Cessation is not gradual since it is the absence of a cause.

Are non-spontaneity and non-gradation the temporal properties of a non-event?

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Cessation isn't when something happens, it's when something stops happening.

Is inaction a non-event or contextually symbolic of a non-event?
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Re: Delusion

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:41 pm

devilyoudont wrote:Are non-spontaneity and non-gradation the temporal properties of a non-event?


A non event has no temporal properties of which one can speak.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Silliness

Postby devilyoudont » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:11 pm

If enlightenment is spontaneous, what practice can bring you cessation?

If enlightenment is gradual, what practice can't bring you cessation?

Namdrol wrote:A non event has no temporal properties of which one can speak.

Is "non-event" a property of a non-event? :tongue:
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Re: Silliness

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:14 pm

devilyoudont wrote:If enlightenment is spontaneous, what practice can bring you cessation?

If enlightenment is gradual, what practice can't bring you cessation?



Awakening is not spontaneous since it does not arise without a cause. It is not gradual since it occurs in one instant.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
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Annoyance :P

Postby devilyoudont » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:49 pm

Namdrol wrote:Awakening is not spontaneous since it does not arise without a cause. It is not gradual since it occurs in one instant.

Is enlightenment conditioned? Is it instantaneous and not non-instantaneous?
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Re: Annoyance :P

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:07 pm

devilyoudont wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Awakening is not spontaneous since it does not arise without a cause. It is not gradual since it occurs in one instant.

Is enlightenment conditioned? Is it instantaneous and not non-instantaneous?


I don't use the term enlightement. Awakening however is a permanent state, from which one cannot regress.

I also don't answer pointless questions. If something occurs in an instant, it occurs in an instant, not two, three, four or sixteen instants.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10219
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Delusion

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:34 pm

devilyoudont wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Cessation is not spontaneous since it is the absence of a cause.

Cessation is not gradual since it is the absence of a cause.

Are non-spontaneity and non-gradation the temporal properties of a non-event?

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Cessation isn't when something happens, it's when something stops happening.

Is inaction a non-event or contextually symbolic of a non-event?


I was once invited to a non-event and when I didn't show up there, it wasn't even happening.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Delusion

Postby devilyoudont » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:36 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:I was once invited to a non-event and when I didn't show up there, it wasn't even happening.

What else was happening at the time?

Namdrol wrote:Awakening however is a permanent state, from which one cannot regress.

I can't imagine who you think would regress from awakening.

Namdrol wrote:I also don't answer pointless questions.

Well, I'm not forcing you to answer anything.

Namdrol wrote:If something occurs in an instant, it occurs in an instant, not two, three, four or sixteen instants.

Are you awake?
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Re: Delusion

Postby devilyoudont » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:46 pm

Serious, serious question about which I have no preconceived ideas, I swear: What is the relationship between cessation and awakening? If cessation cannot be instantaneous or gradual, temporal or atemporal, how can awakening be caused and instantaneous?
Last edited by devilyoudont on Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Delusion

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:47 pm

devilyoudont wrote:Are you awake?


Nope.

Half asleep.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10219
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Delusion

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:49 pm

devilyoudont wrote:Serious, serious question about which I have no preconceived ideas, I swear: What is the relationship between cessation and awakening? If cessation cannot be instantaneous or gradual, temporal or atemporal, how can awakening be instantaneous?


Cessation occurs when, through awakened insight, one removes a cause of further arising. Without awakening, first, there is no analytical cessation.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10219
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Delusion

Postby devilyoudont » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:15 pm

Namdrol wrote:Cessation occurs when, through awakened insight, one removes a cause of further arising. Without awakening, first, there is no analytical cessation.

Thanks, but why and how are you so certain that awakening is instantaneous? Did you wake up once or twice and did each awakening take no more than a single instant? Are you applying induction to your personal experiences, have you been told by someone else, or do you remember thoroughly penetrating the nature of awakening when you were awake? Or is it the case, if you'll forgive my suspicion, that you're answering my query through the mundane views taught by the system of skillful means known as dzogchen?
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Re: Delusion

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:22 pm

At that very second when a ripe apple falls from a tree, is that gradual or sudden?
Even though awakening is sudden, it only happens if a gradual series of events preclude it.
That is the interconnectedness of things.
Once it happens, any difference between sudden and gradual is no longer the view.
They are really the same thing.
Any gradual attainment is suddenly realized
and any sudden realization is gradually attained.

For some reason, now I want to go make some popcorn.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Delusion

Postby devilyoudont » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:32 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Even though awakening is sudden, it only happens if a gradual series of events preclude it.

Suppose that's true, but this is not my question. My question is, how do you know this? Direct perception? What makes this generalized condition on the nature of reality more than just another passing cloud against the clear, blue sky?
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Re: Delusion

Postby Malcolm » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:39 pm

devilyoudont wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Cessation occurs when, through awakened insight, one removes a cause of further arising. Without awakening, first, there is no analytical cessation.

Thanks, but why and how are you so certain that awakening is instantaneous?



It states it to be the case in the Abhisamayaalaṃkara, and other Mahāyāna texts, as opposed to a sixteen moment path of seeing proposed in Abhidharma kosha.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
Malcolm
 
Posts: 10219
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Delusion

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:43 pm

devilyoudont wrote:
PadmaVonSamba wrote:Even though awakening is sudden, it only happens if a gradual series of events preclude it.

Suppose that's true, but this is not my question. My question is, how do you know this? Direct perception? What makes this generalized condition on the nature of reality more than just another passing cloud against the clear, blue sky?


A gradual series of events precludes everything.
Even you have direct perception of this.
So, even if you have a sudden realization or attainment, even if it isn't slowly pried open like a can of paint, you can't dismiss all of the events in your life which contributed to it.

People confuse the "causelessness" of awakening, meaning that it isn't dependent on conditions, with the occurrence of circumstances which lead one to it. there is no contradiction.
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.
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Re: Delusion

Postby devilyoudont » Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:50 pm

PadmaVonSamba wrote:A gradual series of events precludes everything.

Anything can preclude everything else if you let it. Ultimately, it can even preclude itself.

PadmaVonSamba wrote:Even you have direct perception of this.

Do you have direct perception of my direct perception, and do you perceive that yours is in fact perception as opposed to say, faith or touchy feely intuition?

Are you aware that it's this sort of statements that promote bypassing free inquiry and individual conviction in favor of soulless consensus-building? Do you wish, for whatever reason, that my words outwardly conformed with yours?

Anyway, I do not perceive that instantaneity or any other alternative cannot preclude everything else. Why pick on poor old gradation? Or suddenness for that matter?

PadmaVonSamba wrote:So, even if you have a sudden realization or attainment, even if it isn't slowly pried open like a can of paint, you can't dismiss all of the events in your life which contributed to it..

Of the being or non-being who has awakened, you mean to say? From the perspective of the beginner?

PadmaVonSamba wrote:People confuse the "causelessness" of awakening, meaning that it isn't dependent on conditions, with the occurrence of circumstances which lead one to it. there is no contradiction.

How can there not be a contradiction? What contradiction is there not to be? :toilet:
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