103 German soldiers took part in the war in Libya

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103 German soldiers took part in the war in Libya

Postby kirtu » Fri Sep 09, 2011 4:39 pm

The German government revealed this morning that approximately 103 German soldiers took part in the NATO war in Libya. The troops were all involved in NATO support operations dealing with AWACS air defense aircarft (AWACS sees all air assets theatre-wide and is an integral part of controlling the air war) as well as identifying bombing targets.

This was IMO an elective war and German troops should have been ordered to remove themselves from their staff functions for the duration of the war. In the 70's and 80's there was a statement that often greeted US and NATO troops on military exercises "Krieg soll nie wieder von deutschem Boden ausgehen" * - War can never again begin on German soil - or, as most people understood this phrase: Germans may never again start a war - and in most people's minds this included direct combat support activities. When NATO engaged the Serbian maniacs during the 90's there were protests all over Germany and from across the political parties against German air and naval combat support activities. Now Germans have executed integral activities in the prosecution of an elective war. Until this action, the only Germans to have taken part in war from German soil were the East Germans in the 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia.

Kirt Undercoffer
*More commonly: Von deutschem Boden darf nie wieder Krieg ausgehen
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
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Re: 103 German soldiers took part in the war in Libya

Postby Quiet Heart » Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:34 am

:smile:
Obviously you have you're opinion of the current military operations in Libya, and I have mine. That's what we have democracy for, so that differing opinions can be expressed and debated.
But in regard to German operations in NATO, and in particular in Libya, if you think that German forces are not a routine part of NATO operations in the world, you are very wrong.
In particular your comments on AWACS aircraft show your lack of understanding of the nature of NATO operations. Many of the crews on a NATO AWACS aircraft are mixed nationality crews. So on that particular aircraft any one or all those nationalities may be present. That means they may be Danish, French, German, British, Spanish, Dutch, or any of the NATO countries...what country controls he aircraft directly or the aircraft "belongs" to is not relevant. NATO is the overall directiving authority.
By the way, France does not use the word NATO on their AWACS aircraft tails, they use OTAN instead of NATO using the French term for NATO. That's how you can identify the French AWACS aircraft when you see one.
I have personally seen an AWACS aircraft in a U.S. Navy airstrip located on Crete, Greece... a Greek military installation...that had a mixed crew from the Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, and the U.S. flying in that aircraft. It's markings were U.S. Air Force, but the actual crew was the mixed nationality crew I described above.
Another thing, just because a German aircraft departed from a German base, does not mean that it would have flown a comabt misson from that German base. In fact, most of the combat support missions by NATO aircraft in Libya were probably staged from bases in Italy, Crete, or Cyprus... all NATO members. In particular an AWACS aircraft needs a long loiter time for it's search radar to operate at peak efficency. The Greek island of Crete is less than an hour flying time from anywhere in Libya, so i would guess that most missions were staged from either there or from Cyprus.
I'm not challanging your opinion of the Libyan efforts, I just want the actual details of the operation to be understood by everyone.
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach
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Re: 103 German soldiers took part in the war in Libya

Postby kirtu » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:44 am

Quiet Heart wrote:But in regard to German operations in NATO, and in particular in Libya, if you think that German forces are not a routine part of NATO operations in the world, you are very wrong.


Hold on - you're making an unwarranted assumption here. I know the military quite well -

In particular your comments on AWACS aircraft show your lack of understanding of the nature of NATO operations.


that statement is just flat out false.

Many of the crews on a NATO AWACS aircraft are mixed nationality crews.


Yes I know. Also there are German only AWACS (or were in 2001).

cut a bunch of irrelevant stuff -

I'm not challanging your opinion of the Libyan efforts, I just want the actual details of the operation to be understood by everyone.


My point is that the Germans took part in aggressive war launched in reality by the French - I believe the first war that the French started since 1871 but I could be missing something - and that the Germans acquiesced to their involvement in said aggressive war. The correct German response would have been to stand down their troops which was completely doable militarily (so standing down participation in the AWACS operations and standing down targeting operations). The Libyan war was not a military exercise and was a clear violation of "peace". If the French and Americans hadn't supported Gaddafi along the way then perhaps his dictatorship could have been stopped or altered in it's character (the later seeming to be the US strategy generally since after Reagan) For the first time since 1945 Germans took part in a foreign war (with the exception of the DDR participation in the invasion of Czechoslovakia) and thus violated the Brandt admonition that Germans should not engage in offensive war (the actual meaning of Brandt's famous statement). I would exclude the KFOR involvement because KFOR went in to Serbia to stop further genocide and secure the peace.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
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Re: 103 German soldiers took part in the war in Libya

Postby Sönam » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:51 am

kirtu wrote:My point is that the Germans took part in aggressive war launched in reality by the French -
helped by england I guess ... hope in less than a year we are over with Sarko
If the French and Americans hadn't supported Gaddafi along the way then perhaps his dictatorship could have been stopped or altered in it's character (the later seeming to be the US strategy generally since after Reagan)
Kirt

Different countries support different dictators all the time ... it's a common rule. And wat's about China, Syria, Saudi Arabia and many others ...
This is a global view of politic and management in the "free" world ! ... and Germany want to be a part of that "free" world, Brant is over long time ago and police protect those who celebrate Hitler's birthday and they hit those (anarchists) who oppose that. Open your eyes and stop voting for those kind of guys here and there ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: 103 German soldiers took part in the war in Libya

Postby kirtu » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:45 pm

Sönam wrote:This is a global view of politic and management in the "free" world ! ... and Germany want to be a part of that "free" world, Brant is over long time ago and police protect those who celebrate Hitler's birthday and they hit those (anarchists) who oppose that. Open your eyes and stop voting for those kind of guys here and there ...


Willy Brandt revolutionized German thinking and feeling with his active engagement in public restitution (this is my impression because I was a kid living in America at the time and would see him interviewed on American TV sometimes and of course going to his knees in Warsaw was dramatically unprecedented). Brandt is physically dead but not over; his contributions to ending the Cold War are unparalleled as they set the stage for the Americans and Russians to eventually end it.

What's this about police protecting people who are celebrating Hitler's birthday? In Germany or Austria? They would have to be arrested. Do you have a reference for this incident?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

“All beings are Buddhas, but obscured by incidental stains. When those have been removed, there is Buddhahood.”
Hevajra Tantra
kirtu
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