Dzogchen and other traditions

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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Postby White Lotus » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:00 pm

I am Braham, Shiva and Vishnu, Indira and Ishvara, I am the fundamental nature of all things, the only nature, i have gone beyond all kinds of atman. i am emptiness. if you take refuge in me you will be dissapointed. walk on with my insignificant blessing.

best wishes, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Postby daelm » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:25 pm

White Lotus wrote:I am Braham, Shiva and Vishnu, Indira and Ishvara, I am the fundamental nature of all things, the only nature, i have gone beyond all kinds of atman. i am emptiness. if you take refuge in me you will be dissapointed. walk on with my insignificant blessing.

best wishes, Tom.



good to know.

thanks.
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Postby dakini_boi » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:00 am

Namdrol wrote:
AilurusFulgens wrote:
Why am I bringing this up? Because of the following central questions:

a.) Where does Dzogchen practised by a person who is neither Buddhist, nor accepts the doctrine of anatman or pratityasamutpada (dependent origination) lead to according to traditional textual sources and living oral tradition? Do such people simply get stuck in formless blissful realms or are they simply wasting their time or do they go to Vajra hells....?



At best, rebirth in a nirmanakāya buddhafield.

N


Why in this case, a nirmanakaya buddhafield as opposed to dharmakaya or sambhogakaya?
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:10 am

dakini_boi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
AilurusFulgens wrote:
Why am I bringing this up? Because of the following central questions:

a.) Where does Dzogchen practised by a person who is neither Buddhist, nor accepts the doctrine of anatman or pratityasamutpada (dependent origination) lead to according to traditional textual sources and living oral tradition? Do such people simply get stuck in formless blissful realms or are they simply wasting their time or do they go to Vajra hells....?



At best, rebirth in a nirmanakāya buddhafield.

N


Why in this case, a nirmanakaya buddhafield as opposed to dharmakaya or sambhogakaya?


Because ordinary people can see a nirmankāya, but cannot see a Sambhogakāya, much less the Dharmakāya.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:25 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Because ordinary people can see a nirmankāya, but cannot see a Sambhogakāya, much less the Dharmakāya.
N.


Tashi delek,

- What are here ordinary and then following not ordinary people?

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Postby Malcolm » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:28 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Because ordinary people can see a nirmankāya, but cannot see a Sambhogakāya, much less the Dharmakāya.
N.


Tashi delek,

- What are here ordinary and then following not ordinary people?

Mutsog Marro
KY



People below the path of seeing. Regular people.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:52 am

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Because ordinary people can see a nirmankāya, but cannot see a Sambhogakāya, much less the Dharmakāya.
N.


Tashi delek,

- What are here ordinary and then following not ordinary people?

Mutsog Marro
KY



People below the path of seeing. Regular people.



Tashi delek,

Thanks for the replies.

- How do we call here the paths of those people who are dwelling below the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
- How do you call the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.

Best wishes

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Postby Malcolm » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:28 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
- How do we call here the paths of those people who are dwelling below the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
- How do you call the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.


Worldly paths:
Sambhara mārga; tshogs lam; path of accumulation.
Prayoga mārga; sbyor lam; path of application/preparation.

Transcendent paths:
Darśana mārga; mthong lam; path of seeing
Bhavana mārga; sgom lam; path of cultivation
Aśaikṣa marga; mi slop pa'i lam; path of no further training (buddhahood)
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Postby Paul » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:56 pm

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
- How do we call here the paths of those people who are dwelling below the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
- How do you call the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.


Worldly paths:
Sambhara mārga; tshogs lam; path of accumulation.
Prayoga mārga; sbyor lam; path of application/preparation.

Transcendent paths:
Darśana mārga; mthong lam; path of seeing
Bhavana mārga; sgom lam; path of cultivation
Aśaikṣa marga; mi slop pa'i lam; path of no further training (buddhahood)


How do the Dzogchen and Mahamudra path(s) fit with these framework?
This nature of mind is spontaneously present.
That spontaneity I was told is the dakini aspect.
Recognizing this should help me
Not to be stuck with fear of being sued.

-Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Dzogchen and other traditions

Postby Malcolm » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:58 pm

Hayagriva wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
- How do we call here the paths of those people who are dwelling below the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.
- How do you call the path of seeing? Tib / Sanskr.


Worldly paths:
Sambhara mārga; tshogs lam; path of accumulation.
Prayoga mārga; sbyor lam; path of application/preparation.

Transcendent paths:
Darśana mārga; mthong lam; path of seeing
Bhavana mārga; sgom lam; path of cultivation
Aśaikṣa marga; mi slop pa'i lam; path of no further training (buddhahood)


There are various schemes -- for the mahamudra scheme you can look in the mahamudra threads here. For Dzogchen, third vision of thögal = path of seeing.



How do the Dzogchen and Mahamudra path(s) fit with these framework?
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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