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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:44 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
nothing needed, naturally spontaneously complete... merits? you are too kind Sonam.
rigpa may be entered with the mind seal already attained. no need for a mind seal. the mahamudra is not needed.

Kalden, it is not a matter of awareness... awareness is cool, but completly unecessary when it is absent, eg in deep sleep, or day dreaming. the natural state is sometimes aware, sometimes not aware. just naturally as you are.

no need for talk of no mind, no self, nothingness or emptiness. you may have the seal of emptiness, you may know your own nature. these things are not necessary. the natural state is spontaneously complete.

when you taste the natural state it radiates, no need to taste the natural state. naturally complete just as you are naturally so. so when you worry, then you worry. when you are sad you are sad, suffering you naturally suffer. all complete.

best wishes, Tom.


i can see that you like to read a lot :reading: :reading:
OMG..................

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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:32 pm 
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ha! ha! ha! and yes, i do like to read a lot.

in Rigpa there are no requirements. if the guru says that one must see ones own nature. i tell him...
why are you talking crap.

''spontaneously'' complete. ordinary mind is enlightenment.

best wishes, Tom.

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in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:07 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
ha! ha! ha! and yes, i do like to read a lot.


''spontaneously'' complete. ordinary mind is enlightenment.


- Is here, the mind of ego meant as you stated by: "ordinary mind is enlightenment"?

Mutsog marro
KY


best wishes, Tom.

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:08 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
ha! ha! ha! and yes, i do like to read a lot.

in Rigpa there are no requirements. if the guru says that one must see ones own nature. i tell him...
why are you talking crap.

''spontaneously'' complete. ordinary mind is enlightenment.

best wishes, Tom.


You don't understand the meaning of the word "ordinary" as it is used in the Tibetan tradition. So you jump to conclusions and think you grasped something profound. This is only mind and mind is not rigpa, or ordinary mind, or the natural state. If you don't understand what is meant with Samsara, delusion or ignorance is in the Tibetan tradition you can't even begin to phantom what liberation from that is. Reading and thinking is actually very inadequate tools for recognizing the natural state, this is why we need a Guru.

/magnus

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"To reject practice by saying, 'it is conceptual!' is the path of fools. A tendency of the inexperienced and something to be avoided."
- Longchenpa


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:24 pm 
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heart wrote:
White Lotus wrote:
ha! ha! ha! and yes, i do like to read a lot.

in Rigpa there are no requirements. if the guru says that one must see ones own nature. i tell him...
why are you talking crap.

''spontaneously'' complete. ordinary mind is enlightenment.

best wishes, Tom.


You don't understand the meaning of the word "ordinary" as it is used in the Tibetan tradition. So you jump to conclusions and think you grasped something profound. This is only mind and mind is not rigpa, or ordinary mind, or the natural state. If you don't understand what is meant with Samsara, delusion or ignorance is in the Tibetan tradition you can't even begin to phantom what liberation from that is. Reading and thinking is actually very inadequate tools for recognizing the natural state, this is why we need a Guru.

/magnus


Tashi delek,

Sure in case of a Guru, the so called "crap "would never be written down here.
Many of us are too wellknown in the Dzogchen teachings beacause they/we must have understood the Words of the Master well.
So all in all many mistakes were made regarding the statements of Tom, regarding some very essential points of view in case of general Buddhist philosophy as well the Dzogchen philosophy.
Also no sorry i was misunderstood etc. is not felt here, for some unknwn reasons. This because on many questions was not given the right answer / suggestion and there was also many critics like about the backwards effect of Thodgal used in Mahamudra context etc..

Well there is here also made a great secret about ones Guru and Lineage is here a very strange point.

Mutsog Marro
KY

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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:11 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
ha! ha! ha! and yes, i do like to read a lot.

in Rigpa there are no requirements. if the guru says that one must see ones own nature. i tell him...
why are you talking crap.

''spontaneously'' complete. ordinary mind is enlightenment.

best wishes, Tom.


Ordinary mind is sems, not rigpa ... at best your view is a yogacara view.

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:16 pm 
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White Lotus - you've posted a lot of stuff here that's actually the exact opposite to what some major Dzogchen teachers through history (ie Padmasambhava or Mipham Rinpoche etc.) describe as correct understanding of the Dogchen view. It seems quite Advaita influenced.

I think you should get some teachings from an experienced guru, explain your meditation to them and ask for advice about what to do next. Doing this myself was the most important thing I have ever done with respect to meditative experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:53 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
White Lotus wrote:
ha! ha! ha! and yes, i do like to read a lot.

in Rigpa there are no requirements. if the guru says that one must see ones own nature. i tell him...
why are you talking crap.

''spontaneously'' complete. ordinary mind is enlightenment.

best wishes, Tom.


Ordinary mind is sems, not rigpa ... at best your view is a yogacara view.

Sönam


I think he means "tha mal gyi shes pa".

N

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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:50 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Sönam wrote:

I think he means "tha mal gyi shes pa".

N


not sure it was understood that way ...

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:11 pm 
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you are right to assume that i dont know the correct terminology. i am new to Dzogchen.

i see two options, possibly both correct.

1. realize and become rigpa, gently radiating presence.

2. no realization required just remain in the natural state.

forgive my ignorance in this matter.

best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:39 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
you are right to assume that i dont know the correct terminology. i am new to Dzogchen.

i see two options, possibly both correct.

1. realize and become rigpa, gently radiating presence.

2. no realization required just remain in the natural state.

forgive my ignorance in this matter.

best wishes, Tom.


I'm in favor of "only" first solution possible, because of the "innate unenlightenment" (lHang-Chig sKyes-Pa) associated with not realizing itself as it is.

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:20 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
White Lotus wrote:
you are right to assume that i dont know the correct terminology. i am new to Dzogchen.

i see two options, possibly both correct.

1. realize and become rigpa, gently radiating presence.

2. no realization required just remain in the natural state.

forgive my ignorance in this matter.

best wishes, Tom.


I'm in favor of "only" first solution possible, because of the "innate unenlightenment" (lHang-Chig sKyes-Pa) associated with not realizing itself as it is.

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Maybe possible seen in the visions of : Longde; Semsde; or Mengade ?

Mutsog Marro
KY

_________________
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:47 pm 
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kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sönam wrote:
White Lotus wrote:
you are right to assume that i dont know the correct terminology. i am new to Dzogchen.

i see two options, possibly both correct.

1. realize and become rigpa, gently radiating presence.

2. no realization required just remain in the natural state.

forgive my ignorance in this matter.

best wishes, Tom.


I'm in favor of "only" first solution possible, because of the "innate unenlightenment" (lHang-Chig sKyes-Pa) associated with not realizing itself as it is.

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Maybe possible seen in the visions of : Longde; Semsde; or Mengade ?

Mutsog Marro
KY


Sorry Kalden, I do not understand your answer (my bad english of course) ... can you complete it?

Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:01 pm 
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Sönam wrote:
White Lotus wrote:
you are right to assume that i dont know the correct terminology. i am new to Dzogchen.

i see two options, possibly both correct.

1. realize and become rigpa, gently radiating presence.

2. no realization required just remain in the natural state.

forgive my ignorance in this matter.

best wishes, Tom.


I'm in favor of "only" first solution possible, because of the "innate unenlightenment" (lHang-Chig sKyes-Pa) associated with not realizing itself as it is.

Sönam


innate unenlightenment is a part of Mengagde division ... 'Khrul-Tshul

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:00 pm 
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One should understand that natural and developped lineages are the basis and the based(*).
The natural lineage exists as cause but not as result.
Through the virtues one attains liberation.

- Mahayanasutralamkara -

(*) the two lineages are present primordially.

Sönam

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 4:17 pm 
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i would suggest just resting in your normal state... this will produce the fruit of ''realization'' of the natural state. both approaches.

best wishes, Tom.


resting in the natural state
you cannot fail to attain it.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 6:02 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
i would suggest just resting in your normal state... this will produce the fruit of ''realization'' of the natural state. both approaches.

best wishes, Tom.


resting in the natural state
you cannot fail to attain it.


and what is it that you call "my normal state" in which I should stay? and how will that "normal state of mine" produces the natural state?

Image
Sönam

_________________
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:48 pm 
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the normal state is 'this', ''awareness'' of ''this'' with empowerments results in energy. emptiness is energy, but energy is not seen until you practice mindfulness of your normal state/this.

best wishes, Tom.

_________________
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:30 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
the normal state is 'this', ''awareness'' of ''this'' with empowerments results in energy. emptiness is energy, but energy is not seen until you practice mindfulness of your normal state/this.

best wishes, Tom.

Hi Tom,

It seems sometimes you get it right, and sometimes you don't. More experienced practitioners than me have told to to stop fooling yourself and others, and learn to ask questions instead. Me being not that experienced, I kindly ask you to stop this as well. Because for those who are not very realized, like me, it's more difficult to separate the real dharma from the nonsense. You end up confusion people, and that's bad for all of us.

Thank you, and all the very best,
Kelwin


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 Post subject: Re: Awareness.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Kelwin wrote:
Hi Tom,

It seems sometimes you get it right, and sometimes you don't. More experienced practitioners than me have told to to stop fooling yourself and others, and learn to ask questions instead. Me being not that experienced, I kindly ask you to stop this as well. Because for those who are not very realized, like me, it's more difficult to separate the real dharma from the nonsense. You end up confusion people, and that's bad for all of us.

Thank you, and all the very best,
Kelwin


:good:


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