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the great vegetarian debate - Page 23 - Dhamma Wheel

the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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baratgab
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby baratgab » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:08 pm

"Just as in the great ocean there is but one taste — the taste of salt — so in this Doctrine and Discipline there is but one taste — the taste of freedom"

PeterB
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby PeterB » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:20 pm

Certainly precepts are rules for training " I undertake the rule of training to refrain from..etc" however there is no ambiguity about the precept concerning what constitutes a breach of Right Speech. There is no indication that if what you say is correct or moral, then the fact that you have said it in in an angry tone and then stormed off does not matter.
As to the consequences we are told that for one party one consequence was a truncated retreat...
Which I suspect was to her detriment.
I think it may have been better in Buddhist terms for her to turn a blind eye to what someone elses lunch was and concentrate on becoming enlightened for the benefit of all cows, sheep, frogs, butterflies, and nematodes.

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby PeterB » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:34 pm

Those of us who were aquainted with the old Grey Forum wll recall that there were several subjects that were no- go areas. The application of the guidelines around them were somewhat draconian...but there was much to commend them.
Some like the never ending Karmapa Debate are not really issues on Dhamma Wheel .
Others like vegetarian battles, are.
In the latterdays of TGF vegetarian issues were increasingly confined by moderator action to recipes, health tips and so on, as John Riggs recently pointed out, he also pointed out the reasons for that policy.
As I said, it had much to commend it.

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baratgab
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby baratgab » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:55 pm

"Just as in the great ocean there is but one taste — the taste of salt — so in this Doctrine and Discipline there is but one taste — the taste of freedom"

PeterB
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby PeterB » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:00 pm

I guess if there were easy answers and unshaded black and white issues we wouldnt need a discussion forum baratgab. :smile:
Blessings on your plans to ordain, I hope it all goes well.

:anjali:

Peter.

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:14 pm

In the Vinaya Pitaka, we read that many of the rules laid down by the Buddha were enjoined because the villagers were disturbed by the monk's behaviors, and the Buddha thought it best that the monks adopt certain customs in order to mollify the people and avoid scandalous talk. The respect shown to plants, for example. It was believed that plants were "four-factored" life and shouldn't be chopped down unceremoniously. So the monks weren't allowed to injure plants and as far as I know still aren't to this day. At his death, the Buddha said many of the Vinaya rules could be discarded, but the monks didn't feel any of them were qualified to decide which of the rules were minor enough to set aside. All this is recorded in the Pitakas.

One would wonder if the Buddha were around today, what new guidelines he would adopt or discard to appease public discernment. Just sayin'.

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

PeterB
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby PeterB » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:35 pm

I think we can assume that he would adapt and adopt John. He was always led by what led to the greater good, rather than by rigidity, in contrast to the Vedic culture in which he lived which was already by then characterised by ritual and rules.
Always nice to see you btw.

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:56 pm

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:01 pm

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PeterB
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby PeterB » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:12 pm

He was a real pioneer in western Buddhism David, he was also fallable.
What I retain from that, and from subsequent dialogue with Tai Situ is the fact that we do have an almost unconscious heiriachy from invertebrates at the bottom to anthropoid apes at the top.
And I guess that actually corresponds to the reality of "degrees" of sentience. The Tibetans tend to a more flattened heiriachy.
I think that the situation is changing but that formally there was a degree of rationalisation to do with the fact that a vegetarian diet was not easy on the Tibetan Plateau.

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Mukunda » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:15 pm


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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:13 pm

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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:48 am

The question as I understand it is intentional killing. Nobody eats an apple with the intention of wiping out a colony of nematodes. Nor do we rejoice in the collateral killing of life in the harvesting of say, wheat. But when a pig is converted to bacon, there's no getting around the intention of killing -->food. However, it's a diluted intention for the person buying meat from the store as the killing was done several steps away by the person who actually took the life.

And here is where the tricky part comes in: is the law of supply and demand an economic law or a moral law? Or Both?

And in that vast field of speculation much circumlocution and moralizing will occur as everyone will have different degrees of responsibility they're willing to assume based on their sensitivity to the issue. Some people are willing to take on the suffering of the entire world. I found this a job with few benefits and practically no retirement opportunities. :lol:

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:51 am

Greetings,

An interesting article, based on a study by the WWF (not the wrestlers, the other one).

How being vegetarian does more harm to the environment than eating meat
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... -meat.html

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Ben » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:23 am

Hi Retro

It seems to be a bit of a misleading article as it presupposes that all people giving up meat will replace their meat consumption with processed forms of vegetable protein such as tofu and quorn (whatever that is). What about all those vegetarians (and non-vegetarians) who source the majority of their protein intake from a combination of whole grains and beans? I love tofu but I wouldn't eat it every night. And the amount of times I've eaten soy sausages I could count with the fingers of one hand with three fingers bitten off!
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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retrofuturist
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:26 am

Greetings Ben,

For sure... I just find little things like that are handy in order to "challenge assumptions".

The very reason we are still in samsara is on account of wrong assumptions, so I think that anything that can respectfully challenge our assumptions is an opportunity and potentially a blessing.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Mukunda
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Mukunda » Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:55 am


Clueless Git
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Clueless Git » Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:42 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:05 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Zulieka
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Postby Zulieka » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:35 pm

'You cannot stop the birds of unhappiness flying around your head, but you dont have to allow them to make nests in your hair ' Chinese Proverb.


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