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 Post subject: Ālaya in Sakya
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Kai wrote:
Alaya being the neutral ground of both Samara and Nirvana while Buddha nature, the clarity aspect of Alaya, hold the potential for sentinel beings to reach Nirvana while the alaya consciousness, dull aspect of Alaya, traps all beings within the grasp of Samara.


This is not how the Sakya master formulate their idea of the ālaya.

Following Sakya Pandita, Gorampa, in the first section of his three vows commentary, very clearly shows that clarity cannot be tathāgatagarbha since it is conditioned; and emptiness cannot be tathāgatagarbha, since it is the extreme of cessation.

Tathāgatagarbha, according to the standard, orthodox Sakya view is the inseparabilty of clarity and emptiness.

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 Post subject: Re: Ālaya in Sakya
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:09 pm 
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So ultimate alaya = Tathāgatagarbha?

I just want to make sure...........


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 Post subject: Re: Ālaya in Sakya
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:05 pm 
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Kai wrote:
So ultimate alaya = Tathāgatagarbha?

I just want to make sure...........


Inseparability = tathāgatatagarbha.

According to the Sakya masters, ālaya has two aspects -- its ultimate truth aspect is the dharmadhātu; its relative truth aspect is the ālayavijñāna. Because the ultimate nature of the ālaya is the dharmadhātu, nirvana is possible. Because the relative truth aspect of the ālaya is ālayavijñāna, samsara is possible. Since the two truths are inseparable, samsara and nirvana are inseparable.

Hence the special Sakya view is well known as 'khor 'das dbyer med, the inseparability of samsara and nirvana. Sūtra inseparability of samsara and nirvana may be found in the Heart Sūtra. The tantric view of inseparability of samsara and nirvana may be found in the Hevajra tantra.

N

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 Post subject: Re: Ālaya in Sakya
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Inseparability = tathāgatatagarbha.


Ok, I stand corrected.

Quote:
According to the Sakya masters, ālaya has two aspects -- its ultimate truth aspect is the dharmadhātu; its relative truth aspect is the ālayavijñāna. Because the ultimate nature of the ālaya is the dharmadhātu, nirvana is possible. Because the relative truth aspect of the ālaya is ālayavijñāna, samsara is possible. Since the two truths are inseparable, samsara and nirvana are inseparable.


Ok, this part is really similar to Karma Kagyu's Mahamudra teaching as stated in its latest book, I shouldn't have brought "Buddha nature" into the discussion as it makes things more complicated.

Quote:
Sūtra inseparability of samsara and nirvana may be found in the Heart Sūtra. The tantric view of inseparability of samsara and nirvana may be found in the Hevajra tantra.


What does you mean? There is a distinctive difference between the tantric view of inseparability and the Sutric view of inseparability?


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 Post subject: Re: Ālaya in Sakya
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Kai wrote:

Quote:
Sūtra inseparability of samsara and nirvana may be found in the Heart Sūtra. The tantric view of inseparability of samsara and nirvana may be found in the Hevajra tantra.


What does you mean? There is a distinctive difference between the tantric view of inseparability and the Sutric view of inseparability?


The difference is one of method, not view.

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 Post subject: Re: Ālaya in Sakya
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:50 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
Kai wrote:
So ultimate alaya = Tathāgatagarbha?

I just want to make sure...........


According to the Sakya masters, ālaya has two aspects -- its ultimate truth aspect is the dharmadhātu; its relative truth aspect is the ālayavijñāna. Because the ultimate nature of the ālaya is the dharmadhātu, nirvana is possible. Because the relative truth aspect of the ālaya is ālayavijñāna, samsara is possible. Since the two truths are inseparable, samsara and nirvana are inseparable.

N


Hi Namdrol,

Is this like the Mahayanasamgraha position? (Assuming that the Samgraha exists in Tibetan.)


~~ Huifeng

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 Post subject: Re: Ālaya in Sakya
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Just check on the Tsele Natsok Rangdrol's work called Bright Torch again, in which he really equate the true alaya (Ultimate alaya) with Dharmakaya and Buddha nature. It seems that in this aspect, his POV is really different from Sakya's one.


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 Post subject: Re: Ālaya in Sakya
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Huifeng wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Kai wrote:
So ultimate alaya = Tathāgatagarbha?

I just want to make sure...........


According to the Sakya masters, ālaya has two aspects -- its ultimate truth aspect is the dharmadhātu; its relative truth aspect is the ālayavijñāna. Because the ultimate nature of the ālaya is the dharmadhātu, nirvana is possible. Because the relative truth aspect of the ālaya is ālayavijñāna, samsara is possible. Since the two truths are inseparable, samsara and nirvana are inseparable.

N


Hi Namdrol,

Is this like the Mahayanasamgraha position? (Assuming that the Samgraha exists in Tibetan.)


~~ Huifeng


I don't think so. Asanga is a realist, at least in his presentation in this text. (yes, btw).

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


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 Post subject: Re: Ālaya in Sakya
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:51 am 
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Namdrol wrote:
I don't think so. Asanga is a realist, at least in his presentation in this text. (yes, btw).


Thank you, Loppon-la.

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