The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

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The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby AilurusFulgens » Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:14 pm

In order to successfully practise the Vajra Guru mantra (i.e. Om ah hum vajra guru padma siddhi hum) and reach mantrasiddhi in it, does one need to be initiated into this mantra by a qualified Lama, who himself has mantrasiddhi in it or is this mantra a nityasiddha mantra i.e. "eternally or inherently perfect" and can yield the highest mantrasiddhi even to a person, who has not been initiated into it, but chants it devoutly?

The impetus for this question came from the following inspiring story:

http://vajratool.wordpress.com/2011/04/ ... ent-times/

Let us say that your average Joe Sixpack decides one morning to sit down and commit to reciting the Vajra Guru Mantra, that he simply got from the internet and without being initiated into it at, 600 million times with as much devotion as he can muster. Would he then too achieve the remarkable results published in the above blog?

A. Fulgens
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:03 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:a nityasiddha mantra i.e. "eternally or inherently perfect" and can yield the highest mantrasiddhi even to a person, who has not been initiated into it, but chants it devoutly?


This concept does not exist in Vajrayāna.

N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby AilurusFulgens » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:28 pm

Namdrol wrote:
AilurusFulgens wrote:a nityasiddha mantra i.e. "eternally or inherently perfect" and can yield the highest mantrasiddhi even to a person, who has not been initiated into it, but chants it devoutly?


This concept does not exist in Vajrayāna.

N


Thank you, Namdrol for the clarification. Still at least partially the question remains i.e. let us say that your average Joe Sixpack decides one morning to sit down and commit to reciting the Vajra Guru Mantra, that he simply got from the internet and without being initiated into it, 600 million times with as much devotion as he can muster.

Would he then too achieve the remarkable results as the practitioner from Bhutan mentioned in the original post?

If not, then a prior initiation for ANY mantra in Vajrayana is obviously a conditio sine qua non. Now, this would then presuppose that the above mentioned Bhutanese adept received an initiation in the Vajra Guru Mantra from someone qualified somewhere at sometime in his life.

I would be grateful for further clarifications in this respect.

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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:36 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:[Now, this would then presuppose that the above mentioned Bhutanese adept received an initiation in the Vajra Guru Mantra from someone qualified somewhere at sometime in his life.


From your website:

    Finally, he listened to some masters’ advice and decided to start reciting the Vajra Guru mantra (OM AH HUNG BENZA GURU PADMA SIDDHI HUNG)

Yes. And it is impossible that this would not happen in a country such as Bhutan where Guru Rinoche is taught to children when they are infants.

N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:41 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:Thank you, Namdrol for the clarification. Still at least partially the question remains i.e. let us say that your average Joe Sixpack decides one morning to sit down and commit to reciting the Vajra Guru Mantra, that he simply got from the internet and without being initiated into it, 600 million times with as much devotion as he can muster.


Well, if he did this, it would be certain that in the due course of time he would meet a qualified teacher.

N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby AilurusFulgens » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:53 pm

Your help is much appreciated, Namdrol, thank you. Please forgive me, if my questions appear somewhat odd, but I would have one additional query.

I do not want to descend into any miracle mongering or anything similar, but I do have a genuine interest in clarifying certain things.

Do in Tibetan Vajrayana exist teachings, which would make it possible to cause Padmasambhava to appear to a sufficiently accomplished practitioner not only in dreams or a meditative vision, but physically and materially in his svarupa (i.e. not under any disguise such as an old farmer, etc.)?

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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 05, 2011 2:57 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:Your help is much appreciated, Namdrol, thank you. Please forgive me, if my questions appear somewhat odd, but I would have one additional query.

I do not want to descend into any miracle mongering or anything similar, but I do have a genuine interest in clarifying certain things.

Do in Tibetan Vajrayana exist teachings, which would make it possible to cause Padmasambhava to appear to a sufficiently accomplished practitioner not only in dreams or a meditative vision, but physically and materially in his svarupa (i.e. not under any disguise such as an old farmer, etc.)?

A. Fulgens



Padmsambhava made a commitment to physically visit anyone who recited his mantra or prayer every tenth day of the waxing moon. Whether you can see him or not depends on your level of obscuration.

N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby AlexanderS » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:02 pm

Would it be pointless for me to recite the vajra guru mantra without initiation? Pointless as in little benefit.
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:03 pm

AlexanderS wrote:Would it be pointless for me to recite the vajra guru mantra without initiation? Pointless as in little benefit.



If you have faith in Guru Rinpoche, you can recite it without intitiation.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby AilurusFulgens » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:15 pm

Namdrol wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:Would it be pointless for me to recite the vajra guru mantra without initiation? Pointless as in little benefit.


If you have faith in Guru Rinpoche, you can recite it without intitiation.


What would then be the results of reciting the Vajra Guru mantra without an initiation?

Would this merely lead the practitioner to a qualified teacher for further guidance or would this also imply some other results and if so, which?

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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:26 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:
Would this merely lead the practitioner to a qualified teacher...?


Yes.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby narraboth » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:35 pm

AilurusFulgens wrote:
What would then be the results of reciting the Vajra Guru mantra without an initiation?
Would this merely lead the practitioner to a qualified teacher for further guidance or would this also imply some other results and if so, which?

A. Fulgens


LOL
i think Namdrol is playing with you.
chanting Vajra Guru without initiation would be still very benefitial.
Actually there's no rule saying that you can not chant mantra without initiation, except some special mantra.
since you can chant, you will get benefit.

theoritically it would be more benefitial if you have received initiation, but i personally think the way you chant it counts more. I guess if you chant it with devotion and one-point mind, it would be much better than people like me chanting with messy mind.
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:49 pm

narraboth wrote:Actually there's no rule saying that you can not chant mantra without initiation, except some special mantra.


yes, actually there are.

Dharanis from sutras, however are different.
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby pemachophel » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:04 pm

Dear A.F.,

I agree with Namdrol everything he has said in this thread. However, to clarify things just a bit more, in Vajrayana Buddhism, there is initiation (wang) and oral transmission (lung). You do not need wang to say the Vajra Guru mantra. However, lung would be most useful and is typically much easier to obtain. To receive lung, all you need do is receive the mantram aurally from someone who themself has received valid lung and has said the mantra a minimum of 100,000 times. Lung is like hooking up your faucet to the water lines coming from the source (mountains, reservoir, etc.). It confers the blessings of the lineage to say and get the most out of saying the mantra. IOW, lung puts you in the living lineage of the mantra.

For sure, saying the Vajra Guru mantra without lung is beneficial, especially if you say it with Bodhisattvic motivation and faith in Guru Rinpoche. (Just seeing or reading the Vajra Guru mantra is beneficial regardless of whether one knows what it is or whether one ever chooses to say it.) However, saying it with lung is even more beneficial, meaning, all things beings equal, you will experience results much more surely and much faster.

You can get valid lung for the Vajra Guru mantra from any Nyingma Lama and most Nyingma practitioners as well as from most Kagyudpa. Depending on the person, you may even be able to receive the Vajra Guru mantra from Sakyapa and Gelugpa, even potentially from some Bonpos. While it's not necessary to receive lung from a high Lama, the blessings will be greater the more power the person giving the lung personally has with this mantra. I'm not sure where you're located, but it shouldn't be too terribly difficult to receive lung at least to get you going with some increased confidence of having your spiritual water pipes hooked up to the source, i.e., Guru Rinpoche.

Wang is a whole other step up from lung and carries with it not only even greater blessings but also definite life-time commitments.

BTW, I know at least one practitioner here in Colorado who has seen Guru Rinpoche in the form in which He is most commonly depicted. If I remember correctly, I believe he has seen Guru Rinpoche two times.

Good luck and best wishes. :namaste:
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby narraboth » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:18 pm

Namdrol wrote:
narraboth wrote:Actually there's no rule saying that you can not chant mantra without initiation, except some special mantra.


yes, actually there are.

Dharanis from sutras, however are different.


depends on what you mean for 'sutras'. I think we call Tara tantra 'sutra' in China... no matter what we still chant tare mantra.
Amoghapasa is a tantra, Manjusri root tantra is a tantra, they are all huge texts, and many other 'tantras'...
People, especially chinese buddhists, chant many of them without even LUNG, and there are many signs of 'siddhis'.

Yes, there is a line saying 'without initiation, getting siddhi is like pressing oil from sands'. but I don't think it can be understood as you won't be benefited by simply reciting mani, tare tu tare, vajra guru, arapachana.... at least i haven't heard any tibetan lama suggested that. (Tibetan themselves don't worry this)
Most of lama indicate that so-called practice in that saying is strictly tantric practice such as two stages. A senior Gelug-Nyingma master said as long as you don't do self generation, you can visualise dieties in front and chant mantra, it's not a problem that you haven't got initiation. There are also many similar teachings.
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby AilurusFulgens » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:41 pm

Thank you Pema Chophel for the elaborate explanation. I will keep in mind what you said.
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby Malcolm » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:45 pm

narraboth wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
narraboth wrote:Actually there's no rule saying that you can not chant mantra without initiation, except some special mantra.


yes, actually there are.

Dharanis from sutras, however are different.


depends on what you mean for 'sutras'. I think we call Tara tantra 'sutra' in China... no matter what we still chant tare mantra.
Amoghapasa is a tantra, Manjusri root tantra is a tantra, they are all huge texts, and many other 'tantras'...
People, especially chinese buddhists, chant many of them without even LUNG, and there are many signs of 'siddhis'.

Yes, there is a line saying 'without initiation, getting siddhi is like pressing oil from sands'. but I don't think it can be understood as you won't be benefited by simply reciting mani, tare tu tare, vajra guru, arapachana.... at least i haven't heard any tibetan lama suggested that. (Tibetan themselves don't worry this)
Most of lama indicate that so-called practice in that saying is strictly tantric practice such as two stages. A senior Gelug-Nyingma master said as long as you don't do self generation, you can visualise dieties in front and chant mantra, it's not a problem that you haven't got initiation. There are also many similar teachings.


The mani is a dharani, so here is a sutra system for chanting it. Arapacana is also from sutra.

The tantras you are mentioning are so called "kalpa" tantras, sections of sutra that are also classfied as kriya tantra, so again, no contradiction. Most of the mantras that Chinese people are chanting are from sutra or dharani texts. Many of these were also translated from Chinese into Tibetan.

But this will not work with Vajrakilaya, etc. You must have the transmission.

Medicine Buddha, Tara, etc., kriya deities from the Buddha and Lotus families may not require intiation (but that depends too), but mantras from the Vajra family of Kriya tantra definitely require initiation since they are connected with controlling Guhyakas.

N
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby alpha » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:22 am

What's the proper way of reciting the OM BENDZA GURU mantra.

Is there a visualization running in parallel with the recitation?
AOM
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby dakini_boi » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:06 am

alpha wrote:What's the proper way of reciting the OM BENDZA GURU mantra.

Is there a visualization running in parallel with the recitation?


Usually you visualize Guru Rinpoche in front of you (and slightly higher) or he can be above your head. At the end, you can receive the four empowerments, as described below. Visualization isn't necessary if you are just doing the mantra, but it can enhance the practice.

Here's the visualization taken from
http://www.lotsawahouse.org/khyentsewan ... ation.html

4. The Main Visualization

Before us in the sky, in a shimmering sphere of light, white and blue, yellow, red and green,
Floats a throne held aloft by lions, with cushions of lotus, sun and moon.
There you preside, the actual presence of all the buddhas of the three kayas,
Root master, in the form of the Lotus-born Guru.
Your complexion is white, tinged with red, your expression slightly wrathful,
Wearing the lotus hat, gown, and Dharma robes, with
A magnificent dark red cape of shining brocade.
Your right hand holds a five-pointed vajra;
Your left a skull-cup containing the vase of long-life.
A khatvanga cradled in your left arm,
You are seated in the vajra posture.
From the mandalas of your wisdom body, speech and mind
Appear infinite gurus, devas, dakinis and dharmapalas;
All send out and gather back brilliant, dazzling light,
And all become actually present, here.

Visualizing this, recite ‘The Prayer in Seven Chapters’ and ‘The Prayer to Guru Rinpoche that Spontaneously Fulfils All Wishes’, ‘The Seven Line Prayer’, and ‘The Prayer which Removes All Obstacles from the Path’, along with prayers taken from the earlier and later terma treasures, and prayers of any kind that carry the blessing of the vajra speech of the saints of the past. Recite them with an intense longing and yearning, and an all-consuming devotion.

If you can not manage this much, then it will be all right simply to recite ‘The Prayer to the Three Kaya Guru’ and ‘The Prayer to Guru Rinpoche that Spontaneously Fulfils All Wishes’. Whatever you do, at the end call out to Guru Rinpoche and invoke his wisdom mind by chanting the Vajra Guru mantra as much as possible.

5. Empowerment and Dissolution

From the three syllables OM AH HUNG at the three centres of the master,
Rays of light burst out, one after another, and then all together.
Streaming into our three centres, where they dissolve,
Granting us the four empowerments, purifying our four obscurations, and
Making us a suitable vessel to practise the four paths.
Finally, the master dissolves into us, merging inseparably,
And in that state,
We gaze into our original face: the dharmakaya, beyond the ordinary mind.
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Re: The Vajra Guru Mantra of Guru Rinpoche

Postby sangyey » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:43 am

http://www.amazon.com/White-Lotus-Expla ... 600&sr=8-3

White Lotus is a good book explaining the Seven-Line Prayer which includes the Vajra Guru Mantra.
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