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Generosity which results in a non returner - Dhamma Wheel

Generosity which results in a non returner

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Prasadachitta
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Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:53 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Annapurna
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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Annapurna » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:20 pm

Seems people are at a loss....

who will break the silence? :D
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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby jackson » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:38 pm

The way it looks to me is that one is invested with self view, and the other is not, although I could be wrong. By the way, hi everyone! I've been reading this site for a while and thought I might as well contribute for a change.
Metta, :smile:
Jackson
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah

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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Annapurna » Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:12 pm

Welcome!
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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Annapurna » Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:15 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Sekha
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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Sekha » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:30 pm

Well I'll try my best, hoping it might help:

It seems the difference is in the mental volition.

The one giving with the thought 'When this gift of mine is given, it makes the mind serene. Gratification & joy arise' is still acting in the perspective of getting something in return, i.e. a worldly gain. So he produces a wholesome sankhara which is grosser than the other one, and thus gains less benefits.

The one giving with the thought 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind' (btw Bhikkhu Bodhi writes instead: 'because it ennobles and adorns the mind' [Numerical Discourses of the Buddha n°162 p.213]), generates a finer sankhara and does not look for any kind of worldly reward. If we take BB's term 'ennobles', that would mean he rather gives to become more noble, which is a supramundane motivation. So it contributes to non-creation of gross sankharas and the volition leads towards liberation, whereas the other ways of giving lead only towards a life in higher planes, or less than that.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Annapurna » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:18 pm

I was thinking the same, more or less.

The line is ascending, as the translator said.

From stage to stage the motives become more selfless, more Noble and purified of personal benefit and Ego.

I also had initial trouble in understanding "ornament", thinking: wouldn't that be a form of decoration? Vanity? But if you think of it as an "adornment" for a mind to be selfless, pure, yes, it sounds fine.

It probably means that it is an outstanding quality of the mind.

If a mind is selfless, or thinking of others first, it is a beautiful mind.

It allows compassion to arise generously.
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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:56 pm

Greetings Gabe,

The dana is tainted to the extent that greed (e.g. "I want to be reborn in heavenly realms on account of this offering", aversion (e.g. "I will give, but this monk is not really worthy of my offerings" or delusion (e.g. lack of mindfulness during the preparation and offering of the dana) taint one's mind throughout the process.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Annapurna » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:05 pm

Hi Retro,

is the suttha only speaking of giving to monks?

What is meant by "contemplatives"...? :thinking:

Metta,

Anna
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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:13 pm

Greetings Anna,

Contemplatives is a more generic term that I believe can include wanderers of other sects.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Sekha » Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:38 pm

the pali term is samaṇa, often used as samaṇabrāhmaṇā and often translated as 'contemplatives and brahmins'. It is indeed a generic term including bhikkhus, jain ascetes and clothless wanderers (Ājīvikas).

So yes, it is obvisouly meant for monks, because they are the people for whom the dana gives in return the highest gain. But it doubtlessly applies to any kind of gift.
Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Prasadachitta » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:17 am

Hi Retro, Ana, and, Dukkhanirodha,

Im am interested in this idea of "Super mundane motivation". It seems to me that making the mind serene, gratified, and joyful are key aspects our practice. My understanding is that these aspects are important conditions but not ultimate ends in themselves. In this Sutta the Buddha is speaking to a group of lay followers and I expect that his words were meant to be understood on a practical level. I mean that the Buddha intended his words to create an impression of meaningful distinction for those who have not seen his truth for themselves. Do you think that characterizing a type of generosity with the attitude 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind' is meant to convey something like generosity with an attitude which does not look for an end but is aware and appreciative of progressively supportive spiritual beauty?

Metta


Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:54 am

Greetings Gabe,

I think the general rule to be drawn from it is that the purity of the mind in relation to the offering (action / kamma) determines the quality of the result (vipaka).

Nothing really new here in terms of a standard kamma teaching, merely that it's being applied here to the action and result pairings that can be associated with dana.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Annapurna
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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Annapurna » Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:35 am

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby fig tree » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:13 am


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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Annapurna » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:39 am

Hi, figtree! :hello:

Your avatar is a bit large and so I can't read your posts too well...

Can you shrink it? If not, I'd be willing to do it for ya. :namaste:

Metta,

Annapurna
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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby chownah » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:43 pm

What does, 'This is an ornament for the mind, a support for the mind' mean?...it is the thought which the Buddha recommends upon giving.
Canonical references and personal views are welcome.
chownah

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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Prasadachitta » Sat Feb 27, 2010 6:55 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby Sekha » Sat Feb 27, 2010 10:04 am

Where knowledge ends, religion begins. - B. Disraeli

http://www.buddha-vacana.org

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Re: Generosity which results in a non returner

Postby chownah » Mon Mar 01, 2010 2:20 pm



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