Buddhahood in Chan

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:00 am

No, it is a Huayen view of the initial production of bodhicitta, which is the entrance to the path of accumulation.


It says first bhumi and it means the first bhumi. However, the five paths system is not used but the 52 stages. That means, for instance, that the buddha-nature is realised on the level of faith (first ten of the 52) in Zongmi's interpretation, or on the level of dwelling (second ten) in Li Tongxuan's version. A description of the arousal of bodhicitta, following Zongmi's teachings, is explained in Peixiu's "Exhortation to Resolve on Buddhahood" translated by Ven. Dharmamitra and is available on his website.

No, since the ten stages are treated the same way. In Chinese Buddhism they are merely encased within an alternate scheme, but when I say first bhumi, I mean the first bodhisattva bhumi as described in the Dasabhumika sutra.


That's the point, it is not treated the same way. Here's Buswell's summary based on Tongxuan's work:
"The ten bhumis are the original foundation of all dharmas. Here the bodhisattva pervades all dharmas, all directions, and all positions simultaneously. Development before this stage involved some measure of effort and entailed as well the progressive development of meritorious practices. By the time the bodhisattva has reached the ten bhumis, however, he has nothing left to practice and nothing left to achieve. It is a kind of "firming-up" stage at which all the qualities and achievements attained throughout the previous levels are matured and allowed to infuse his entire being. He merges with all dharmas without, however, losing his own identity in the process. This is the stage of the unimpeded interpenetration of all phenomena- the highest expression of spiritual attainment in the Avatamsaka Sutra and, by implication, in all the Buddhist scriptures."
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Huifeng » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:04 am

Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:No, we just have the usual philosophical sleight of hand I mentioned above.

The sleight of hand is using a 9th century polemical argument to criticize a 2nd century conception of the bodhisattva path.

Namdrol wrote:The point that I am really trying to make is that Indian Mahāyānists took their own tradition seriously. For example, Nāgārjuna in the Ratnavali lists in some detail how much merit is required for each of the major and minor marks, when encouraging the king to cultivate merit.

And three uncalculable eons is not even really a Mahāyāna number. It is a number which comes from the earliest ideas about the length of time it took the bodhisattva to acheive buddhahood.

As I mentioned previously on another thread, if we were to show up in 2nd century India with our basket of tantras and claim that it's possible to attain buddhahood in one lifetime, we'd be laughed out of every vihāra on the sub-continent.


+1 each for these two points.
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:08 pm

Astus wrote:
No, it is a Huayen view of the initial production of bodhicitta, which is the entrance to the path of accumulation.


It says first bhumi and it means the first bhumi.



Which first bhumi? The traditional dasabhumi are bhumis 40-50 in in the 52 stages scheme which is a result of taking chapter 15, 21, 22, 25, 26 of the Avatamska to be descriptions or levels on the bodhisattva path. Chapter 26 however,or the ten stages is the Dasabhumika sūtra and that is what is under discussion.



No, since the ten stages are treated the same way. In Chinese Buddhism they are merely encased within an alternate scheme, but when I say first bhumi, I mean the first bodhisattva bhumi as described in the Dasabhumika sutra.


That's the point, it is not treated the same way. Here's Buswell's summary based on Tongxuan's work:
"The ten bhumis are the original foundation of all dharmas. Here the bodhisattva pervades all dharmas, all directions, and all positions simultaneously. Development before this stage involved some measure of effort and entailed as well the progressive development of meritorious practices. By the time the bodhisattva has reached the ten bhumis, however, he has nothing left to practice and nothing left to achieve. It is a kind of "firming-up" stage at which all the qualities and achievements attained throughout the previous levels are matured and allowed to infuse his entire being. He merges with all dharmas without, however, losing his own identity in the process. This is the stage of the unimpeded interpenetration of all phenomena- the highest expression of spiritual attainment in the Avatamsaka Sutra and, by implication, in all the Buddhist scriptures."


As I said, it is treated in the same way. When a bodhisattva realizes the first bhumi, there is no more emptiness to realize, all that is left to do is to complete the two accumulations, as I told you, the ten stages only map qualities, not realization.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:14 pm

Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:No, we just have the usual philosophical sleight of hand I mentioned above.

The sleight of hand is using a 9th century polemical argument to criticize a 2nd century conception of the bodhisattva path.



I am not criticizing a second century concept of the bodhisattva path.



As I mentioned previously on another thread, if we were to show up in 2nd century India with our basket of tantras and claim that it's possible to attain buddhahood in one lifetime, we'd be laughed out of every vihāra on the sub-continent.


Yes, I have acknowledged this several times. The point I am making is that later Vajrayānists took this limitation seriously and proposed that early Mahāyāna was by definition a slow path, requiring incalculable eons to complete because there were no unique methods in sutrayāna to hasten progress on the path.

Since Chan, Huayen, and so on do not add any new insights into the nature of reality, nor do they add any revolutionary new methods, any claims they make to sudden buddhahood are merely rhetoric and philosophical trickery.

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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:22 pm

"Which first bhumi?"

Only the usual ten bodhisattva stages are the bhumis, the others are faith, dwelling, conduct, transference, then the stages/bhumis.

"As I said, it is treated in the same way. When a bodhisattva realizes the first bhumi, there is no more emptiness to realize, all that is left to do is to complete the two accumulations, as I told you, the ten stages only map qualities, not realization."

As the quote said, there is no realisation on any of those bhumis. The realisation happened on the 11th level, the first level of dwelling, and the 1st bhumi is the 41st level.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:50 pm

"Since Chan, Huayen, and so on do not add any new insights into the nature of reality, nor do they add any revolutionary new methods, any claims they make to sudden buddhahood are merely rhetoric and philosophical trickery."

On one hand, Chan can be deduced from the sutras, so it is in no contradiction with the Buddha's teachings. On the other, the interpretation they make of the Dharma is unique in content, method and style. In content it teaches the sudden enlightenment that accomplishes buddhahood directly. In method it uses immediate insight into the true nature of mind. In style it has developed a language of enlightened action, most apparent in koans.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:55 pm

Astus wrote:
The realisation happened on the 11th level, the first level of dwelling, and the 1st bhumi is the 41st level.


If that is so, it is plainly wrong.
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Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
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-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:39 pm

Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:So you basically doubt that Virupa, for example, traversed all the paths and stages in a single lifetime?

I don't see any reason to take mahasiddha hagiographies literally.

Namdrol wrote:And what about this Vajrayāna tenet makes it "provisional"?

Look at the numbers Namdrol. Any direct equivalency is absurd on the face of it.


This is a very interesting discussion. It is a very important discussion. Please allow a possibility that there actually is buddhahood in one life. Please consider that the powers gained on the bhumis as described in sutras are inspirational. The actual realizations and samadhis that happen on the bhumis or that a buddha has are completely beyond description and can only be referenced metaphorically. The realization of nonconceptual wisdom is possible even in a day or a week. Chan does not possess this method. Vajrayana does.

Then the matter of attaining omniscience is a gradual process. Because the obstacles to omniscience are in one's elements, one has to remain in nonconceptual wisdom 24/7 for a long time, then sometime around death wisdom throws off the veil of the elements. Vajrayana has methods that make this certain. Chan does this potentially but without the specific method, it won't be as certain.
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:49 pm

Astus wrote: In content it teaches the sudden enlightenment that accomplishes buddhahood directly.


One can say whatever one likes For example, consider the statement "Jesus teaches a method of direct buddhahood, far superior to anything taught by any other Buddha or tradition". Who can refute this if all statements about Buddhism are to be considered valid? In other words, such claims are just so much hot air without reasons.

As we have seen, there is no precedent in Indian Buddhism from the 1st century BCE to the time supposedly Bodhidharma visited China the the kind of claims some Chan masters make.


In method it uses immediate insight into the true nature of mind.


As I pointed out, if insight into the nature of the mind was sufficient for full buddhahood, then first stage bodhisattvas would be buddhas. But they are not.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Jnana » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:43 pm

deepbluehum wrote:This is a very interesting discussion. It is a very important discussion. Please allow a possibility that there actually is buddhahood in one life. Please consider that the powers gained on the bhumis as described in sutras are inspirational. The actual realizations and samadhis that happen on the bhumis or that a buddha has are completely beyond description and can only be referenced metaphorically. The realization of nonconceptual wisdom is possible even in a day or a week. Chan does not possess this method. Vajrayana does.

Then the matter of attaining omniscience is a gradual process. Because the obstacles to omniscience are in one's elements, one has to remain in nonconceptual wisdom 24/7 for a long time, then sometime around death wisdom throws off the veil of the elements. Vajrayana has methods that make this certain. Chan does this potentially but without the specific method, it won't be as certain.

You've re-emphasized my previous point: Every Mahāyāna tradition is faith based. One of the glaring shortcomings of Tibetan Buddhism is in taking a faith based, visionary tradition, and trying to interpret it literally. Of course, this began in India, with proofs of omniscience and so on. But that doesn't legitimize it. Here the Tibetans could learn a thing or two from the Chinese and Japanese masters. But this likely won't happen any time soon, since virtually every Tibetan Buddhist has already been thoroughly convinced by their tradition's self-proclaimed superiority.
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:49 pm

Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:This is a very interesting discussion. It is a very important discussion. Please allow a possibility that there actually is buddhahood in one life. Please consider that the powers gained on the bhumis as described in sutras are inspirational. The actual realizations and samadhis that happen on the bhumis or that a buddha has are completely beyond description and can only be referenced metaphorically. The realization of nonconceptual wisdom is possible even in a day or a week. Chan does not possess this method. Vajrayana does.

Then the matter of attaining omniscience is a gradual process. Because the obstacles to omniscience are in one's elements, one has to remain in nonconceptual wisdom 24/7 for a long time, then sometime around death wisdom throws off the veil of the elements. Vajrayana has methods that make this certain. Chan does this potentially but without the specific method, it won't be as certain.

You've re-emphasized my previous point: Every Mahāyāna tradition is faith based. One of the glaring shortcomings of Tibetan Buddhism is in taking a faith based, visionary tradition, and trying to interpret it literally. Of course, this began in India, with proofs of omniscience and so on. But that doesn't legitimize it. Here the Tibetans could learn a thing or two from the Chinese and Japanese masters. But this likely won't happen any time soon, since virtually every Tibetan Buddhist has already been thoroughly convinced by their tradition's self-proclaimed superiority.


We are are not really talking Tibetan Buddhism here. We are talking about Chan Buddhism and Indian Mahāyāna. Your non-sequitors about Vajrayāna are a distracting waste of time.

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-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:43 pm

I also just wanted to point out something I feel matters a great deal. There is no difference between what Chan and Vajrayana say emptiness is. Where the disputes arise is when either side posits what a buddha is and how it is attained. Namdrol is accurate in pointing out the key point is maintaining post-meditation equipoise. This is what merit is really about, to give up grasping altogether.
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:52 pm

Jnana wrote:You've re-emphasized my previous point: Every Mahāyāna tradition is faith based. One of the glaring shortcomings of Tibetan Buddhism is in taking a faith based, visionary tradition, and trying to interpret it literally. Of course, this began in India, with proofs of omniscience and so on. But that doesn't legitimize it. Here the Tibetans could learn a thing or two from the Chinese and Japanese masters. But this likely won't happen any time soon, since virtually every Tibetan Buddhist has already been thoroughly convinced by their tradition's self-proclaimed superiority.


I don't think I said Mahayana is faith based or visionary. I think it is reason and experience based. But the results of the reasoning are way outside of the scope of reason. It is like notion of the parabolic exponential extrapolation. When change goes vertical on the graph, the notion of acceleration or increase go to infinity. The reasoning of buddha's qualities are just like that. Though we cannot understand or comprehend infinite wisdom, we can comprehend the path to get there, and we can understand infinite wisdom is infinite wisdom. We can understand what causes limitations and we can understand how to overcome them. Faith does not need reason. Buddhism does.
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Jnana » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:54 pm

Namdrol wrote:As I pointed out, if insight into the nature of the mind was sufficient for full buddhahood, then first stage bodhisattvas would be buddhas. But they are not.

This is just another lame gradualist argument.
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:05 pm

Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:As I pointed out, if insight into the nature of the mind was sufficient for full buddhahood, then first stage bodhisattvas would be buddhas. But they are not.

This is just another lame gradualist argument.


And this is just another petulant complaint lacking substance and reasoning.
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Jnana » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:15 pm

deepbluehum wrote:The realization of nonconceptual wisdom is possible even in a day or a week. Chan does not possess this method. Vajrayana does.

There is no "method" for entering non-conceptual gnosis. There is either recognition or non-recognition. This is the definitive teaching of both sutra and tantra.
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby deepbluehum » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:21 pm

Jnana wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:The realization of nonconceptual wisdom is possible even in a day or a week. Chan does not possess this method. Vajrayana does.

There is no "method" for entering non-conceptual gnosis. There is either recognition or non-recognition. This is the definitive teaching of both sutra and tantra.


Let's say you are introduced to the nature of mind and appearance like this: "When your eye contacts light and form a feeling arises. You grasp this feeling as real, then you enjoy or dislike this feeling, further clinging to it. To realize the nature of mind you must search this feeling to discover if it has any color or shape. Once you are convinced it does not, you rest in the state of non-seeing. This is buddha."

Now just focusing on the nature of appearance for a moment, just having this experience is great merit and a pivotal turn of events in one's contemplative life. But it is not sufficient to never ever grasping appearances as real again. One will have to practice one appearance after another until one becomes habituated to letting go into the nature of emptiness.

Let's just say Chan's method of introducing is equivalent to this. I don't think so. I think such an introduction is special to Vajrayana, but it could be in theory. This bit is all Chan would have, and it is not enough just to have this kind of experience. This experience alone is not buddhahood, because the force of our habits will have us grasping again. A buddha would have totally let go and never grasped again. Of course, theoretically, anyone can see emptiness and understand intellectually that it is supreme, but bringing it down into a 24/7 commitment requires great discipline. The discipline is almost superhuman unless you have the right method.

It is this very important moment when the practice of mandala offering becomes very crucial. Or there are other secretive teachings involving channels and winds. The main point is one has an inner experience of bliss-emptiness that makes letting go of externals very easy. Again, this is not a point of faith, but yogic direct knowledge. The more powerful methods make more powerful bliss-emptiness experiences. That everything abides nowhere yet depends on everything else is something you can realize from just reading this sentence, but it is very difficult to use that knowledge to overcome all your negative emotions. You can, but it is not practical. All the vajrayana methods deal with this practical problem.
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Jnana » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:38 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Jnana wrote:
Namdrol wrote:As I pointed out, if insight into the nature of the mind was sufficient for full buddhahood, then first stage bodhisattvas would be buddhas. But they are not.

This is just another lame gradualist argument.


And this is just another petulant complaint lacking substance and reasoning.

Lama Shang:

    In the instant that you realize your own mind,
    all good qualities without exception,
    are simultaneously completed without having to accomplish them.

Je Gampopa:

    When one is endowed with the meaning of emptiness, there is not a single thing which in not included in this path. It includes going for refuge because the Naga King Anavatapta-Requested Sutra says:

    A bodhisattva knows all phenomena to be without self, without sentient beings, without life, without person. Like the Tathagata, the perfect non-seeing—not being form, not being characterized, not being phenomena—is going to the Buddha for refuge with an unconfused mind.

    That which is the phenomena-as-such of the Tathagata is the all-pervading Dharma sphere. That which is the all-pervading Dharma sphere is said to pervade all phenomena. Thus, it is seeing the all-pervading Dharma sphere. To see that is going to the Dharma for refuge with an unconfused mind.

    One who meditates upon the uncompounded all-pervading Dharma sphere and depends upon the uncompounded vehicle of the Hearers and is not concerned with the duality of compound and uncompound goes to the Sangha for refuge with an unconfused mind.


    Cultivation of bodhicitta is also included. The Great Development of the Enlightened Mind Sutra says:

    Kashyapa, all phenomena are like space, without characteristics, are completely pure clear light from the beginning. This is what is said to be the cultivation of bodhicitta.

    Visualization of the deity and the recitation of mantras are also said to be complete when this [the realization of emptiness] exists. The Hevajra Tantra says:

    There is neither meditation nor meditator
    The deity does not exist and the mantras also have no existence
    In the nature free from all elaboration,
    Dwell perfectly all the deities and their mantras—Vairocana,
    Aksobhya, Amoghasiddhi, Ratnasambhava, Amitabha, Vajrasattva.


    The Glorious Great Buddhas' Union with Perfected Dakinis Uttaratantra says:

    Realization will not arise from cast images and so forth. However, if one makes energetic effort in bodhicitta, from that the yogin will become the deity.

    The Great Secret Yogatantra Diamond Summit says:

    The characteristic of all mantras is the mind of all Buddhas because it is the method of accomplishing the essence of phenomena. The characteristic of mantras is explained as being properly endowed with the all-pervading Dharma sphere.

    Performing fire-offering rituals is also included in this. The King of Secret Nectar Tantra says:

    Why is it the fire-offering ritual? It is the fire-offering ritual because it burns conceptual thought and grants ultimate attainment. Burning wood and so forth is not the real fire-offering ritual.

    Even the path—the six perfections—is complete in this. The Vajra Meditative Absorption Sutra says:

    When one has not moved from emptiness, the six perfections are included.

    The Brahma Visesaanti-Requested Sutra says:

    Not to think is generosity. Not to dwell within differentiation is moral ethics. Not to distinguish is patience. Freedom from acceptance and rejection is perseverance. Nonattachment is meditative concentration. Nonconceptual thought is wisdom awareness.

    The Essence of the Earth Sutra says:

    The wise one who meditates upon the emptiness of phenomena neither abides in, nor is supported by, all the world. Not abiding in all existence, the perfectly virtuous moral ethics are well-guarded.

    The same sutra says:

    All phenomena are of one taste since emptiness is without characteristics. The mind neither abides in nor is attached to anything at all. This patience will be greatly beneficial. The wise one, having begun to act with perseverance, casts all attachments to a distance. His mind neither abides in nor is attached to anything at all. This is called the perfectly meritorious field. For the benefit and happiness of all sentient beings, meditative stabilization is practiced and the heavy burden put down. Completely removing all afflictions is the characteristic of the perfectly wise one.

    Doing prostrations is also included in this. The Precious Sky Sutra says:

    Just like water poured into water, like butter stirred into butter, perfectly seeing this self-aware primordial wisdom by oneself constitutes prostrations.

    It is also offering if one has this. The Meeting of Father and Son Sutra says:

    One who relies upon the emptiness of phenomena and aspires to the field of Buddha is offering to the Teacher. This is unsurpassed offering.

    The King of Secret Nectar Tantra says:

    The offering of the ultimate meaning pleases the Buddha. He is not delighted with offerings of incense and so forth. Softening one's mind is the great offering which delights Buddha.

    Again, if one is endowed with this, it is also the very purification of evil deeds. The Completely Pure Karma Sutra says:

    One who desires confession should sit straight and look at the perfect meaning. Properly looking at perfection is the supreme regret and awakening.

    The guarding of moral ethics and samaya is also included in this meaning. The Son of the Gods, Susthitamati-Requested Sutra says:

    The one who does not have the arrogance of having vows or not has the moral ethics of nirvana. This is completely pure moral ethics.

    And from the Ten Wheels Sutra:

    Although one remains at home and does not cut either their hair or beard, does not even wear Dharma-robes, and has not even received precepts of moral ethics, such a one—by being endowed with the sublime truth of phenomena—should be known as the ultimate bhikshu.

    Listening, reflecting, and meditating are also encompassed in this meaning. The Completely Non-Abiding Tantra says:

    If one has eaten the food of uncontrived nature, one will satisfy all the tenets without exception. Childish beings, not having realized this, depend upon terms and words. Everything is a characteristic of one's mind.

    Saraha also says:

    This is reading, this is comprehending, this is meditating, this is also learning commentaries by heart. There does not exist any view which could indicate this.

    Torma cakes and daily Dharma rituals are also included in this meaning. The King of Secret Nectar Tantra says:

    Offerings, torma and so forth, all the various activities—by discovering the thatness of the mind, everything is definitely included here.

    In that case, if all these are included in meditating on only the essence or the mind-as-such, why do there appear teachings on so many graduated methods? It is for the purpose of leading all those sentient beings of little fortune, who are ignorant in the ultimate nature. The Ornament of the Arising Wisdom says:

    That which has been explained as the relation between cause and condition and also entering into the different stages—this all has been taught as a method to those who are ignorant. Concerning this spontaneously established dharma, why would one need gradual training?

    The Arisal of the View of Supreme Happiness says:

    Thus, the self-nature is like the sky. I have obtained the self-nature which is permanently free.

    The Precious Sky Sutra says:

    As long as one has not entered into the ocean of the all-pervading Dharma sphere, there are indeed distinct paths and levels. Having gone into the ocean of the all-pervading Dharma sphere, there is not the slightest level or path to traverse.


Saraha:

    If you’re not satisfied in your practice,
    how will meditation get you free?
    What use are lamps? What use is offered food?
    What is mantra practice supposed to do?

    No tantra, no mantra, no reflection or recollection—
    Hey, fool! All this is the cause of error.
    Mind is unstained—don’t taint it with meditation;
    you’re living in bliss: don’t torment yourself.
Jnana
 
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Jnana » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:44 pm

deepbluehum wrote:Let's just say Chan's method of introducing is equivalent to this. I don't think so. I think such an introduction is special to Vajrayana

With Chan, everything is a direct introduction. Every moment of every experience.

deepbluehum wrote:Or there are other secretive teachings involving channels and winds. The main point is one has an inner experience of bliss-emptiness that makes letting go of externals very easy. Again, this is not a point of faith, but yogic direct knowledge. The more powerful methods make more powerful bliss-emptiness experiences.

Saraha:

    Don’t hold your breath and think on yourself;
    wretched yogin, don’t focus in on the tip of your nose.
    Hey, fool! Savor yourself fully in the innate;
    don’t just wander around, bound by the lines of existence.
Jnana
 
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:59 pm

Jnana wrote:Snip citation blizzard


These don't say anything, absent contextualized reasoning and explanation. They certainly don't mean that the path of seeing is buddhahood.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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