Permanence and Enlightenment

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Permanence and Enlightenment

Postby AdmiralJim » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:56 pm

Upon becoming enlightened what stops ignorance from re-asserting itself?
If that is not possible then does that make enlightenment permanent?
How does that sit with the second turning of the wheel of dharma upon which the fundamental teaching that everything is voidness? :shock:
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Re: Permanence and Enlightenment

Postby Malcolm » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:21 pm

AdmiralJim wrote:Upon becoming enlightened what stops ignorance from re-asserting itself?


Having realized emptiness, it is impossible to forget that realization.



If that is not possible then does that make enlightenment permanent?


When a seed is scorched, it is permanently incapable of giving rise to a sprout, likewise, when the seed of ignorance is scorched, it can never give rise to the result, affliction, again
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Re: Permanence and Enlightenment

Postby AdmiralJim » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:22 pm

Thank you for answering my questions although it doesn't address my last point of whether that contradicts voidness. :toilet:
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Re: Permanence and Enlightenment

Postby Malcolm » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:11 pm

AdmiralJim wrote:Thank you for answering my questions although it doesn't address my last point of whether that contradicts voidness. :toilet:



It does. Because of the realization of emptiness, the seeds of affliction are scorched.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

" The one who teaches the benefits of peace,
he is said to be a ṛṣī; the others are the opposite of him."

-- Uttaratantra
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Re: Permanence and Enlightenment

Postby xabir » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:21 pm

Namdrol wrote:It does. Because of the realization of emptiness, the seeds of affliction are scorched.

N
Yet only a Buddha has completely removed afflictions right?
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Re: Permanence and Enlightenment

Postby xabir » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:23 pm

Namdrol wrote:Having realized emptiness, it is impossible to forget that realization.
But it is possible to forget one's realization in the next life, until one is 8th bhumi, is that right?
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Re: Permanence and Enlightenment

Postby Sönam » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:32 pm

xabir wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Having realized emptiness, it is impossible to forget that realization.
But it is possible to forget one's realization in the next life, until one is 8th bhumi, is that right?


having answered to "who has realized" you have answered to your question ...

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By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Permanence and Enlightenment

Postby PadmaVonSamba » Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:30 pm

AdmiralJim wrote:Upon becoming enlightened what stops ignorance from re-asserting itself?
If that is not possible then does that make enlightenment permanent?


When you truly know or experience something, you don't stop knowing it or return to a time when that experience did not occur.
Ignorance is not the result, it is the cause (of suffering). It is a kind of not knowing. It's like a hole in the ground. Once you fill it up, it doesn't become a hole again.


AdmiralJim wrote:
How does that sit with the second turning of the wheel of dharma upon which the fundamental teaching that everything is voidness?


"everything is voidness" is not an accurate phrase. Accurately put, all apparent phenomena arise conditionally and have no intrinsic reality.

I don't see where enlightenment has any bearing on this.
If you are asking whether or not enlightenment is beyond conditionality, then let's define the term enlightenment, for the purpose of this discussion.

Let's say that Enlightenment, in the Buddhist context, refers to complete extinction of the causes of suffering and mental anguish. "Freedom from suffering and the causes of suffering".

You can throw in various powers and omnipotence and whatever you like, but I am trying to keep the definition uncluttered.

So, on the one hand, if we compare being enlightened to not being enlightened, then enlightenment is conditional. It only happens in relation to not being enlightened. That's why one person is seen as a Buddha and the next person isn't.

However, the next person also possesses the same potential for enlightenment as the Buddha. And although realizing that potential is conditional, because it depends on many factors such as motivation, right view, effort, and so on, The actual point of realization, of enlightenment, that is not conditional because by nature it's very essence, what makes enlightenment enlightenment, is its nonconditionality. Realization does not depend on shifting circumstances.

So, referring back to the first part of your question, about returning ignorance, Realization, or Enlightenment does not hinge on ignorance somehow creeping back in, because at this point the contradictions and dualities which appear to arise due to ignorance are totally resolved.
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