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the 5th precept - Dhamma Wheel

the 5th precept

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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the 5th precept

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:37 pm

so is the original pali, to not drink at all or to not abuse alcohol?
also isnt it specificly aimed at alcohol and not generic intoxicants? (thus not really against drug use?)

maybe Dhammanando can help out here...
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Fede » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:05 pm

"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Dhammanando » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:51 pm


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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:31 pm

Hi All
When I was looking at different translations of the pali, it generally stated Intoxicants! or mind altering substances! it has only been more recently (well a few years ago but closer to now than the other translations) that I have seen more and more translations refer to alcohol and drugs.
I would say it is refraining from all Intoxicants that cloud the judgements and loosen personal restraint! not including Medical drugs used for specific treatments which may or may not have a side effect of intoxication as long as they were specifically prescribed too the person using them and no other option was, or is available which would do the at least the same job!


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Fede » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:38 pm

"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: the 5th precept

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 03, 2009 4:18 am

Greetings,

I think venerable Dhammanando's point is critical... whilst the Buddha specifically identified alcohol as a problem, he wouldn't have known about all the bizarre chemical concoctions that people have come up with over the last couple of centuries, so it's valuable to look at the intent of the precept as well as the literal rendition in this instance.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Jechbi » Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:50 am


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Re: the 5th precept

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:02 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: the 5th precept

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:42 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Jason » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:47 am

Ajahn Khemasanto, abbot of Wat Dhammasala in Perry, Mchigan, has said that having a glass of wine with dinner (for a lay-follwers at least) does not violate the fifth precept as long as one stops before they can "feel the effects" of the alcohol. The main reasoning behind this interpretation, I suppose, is the intent of the precept itself, i.e., the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs that lead to carelessness is meant to help protect one from breaking the other four precepts, not to insinuate that drinking alcohol in and of itself is unwholesome. Whether this is what the Buddha himself meant when he formulated the fifth precept, I do not know; I am just passing along what I have heard. I myself have a glass of wine once in a while, and I do not lose any sleep over it. Suffice it to say that I am not a strict "Theravadin." I tend to follow the spirit rather than the letter when it comes to doctrine.
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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Dhammanando » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:20 am


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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Jan 04, 2009 9:55 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: the 5th precept

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:22 am

a bit off topic maybe, but i find it kinda funny that a meditation teacher or monk would recomend drinking and not meditation as a course for relaxation... :ugeek:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:42 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Moth » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:28 pm

Sorry to ressurect an old thread.

So, is drinking caffine considered a violation of the 5th precept? How about smoking tobacco?
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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Reductor » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:46 pm


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Re: the 5th precept

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:17 pm

Caffeine and smoking are fine.

http://buddhismatoz.com/s/Smoking.html

But for monks, in my opinion, it is similar to indulgence in the senses and probably not appropriate; but that is just my opinion, no set rule in the Vinaya.
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Re: the 5th precept

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:59 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: the 5th precept

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:13 am

Hi Retro,

Yes, I meant smoking is probably inappropriate (not caffeine) due to its harmful effects and indulgence in the senses (but not a precept violation).

Caffeine is not bad and does not appear to effect the mind or consciousness in moderate amounts. Tea, especially, only has small amounts (as compared to coffee).

I am a big tea drinker myself, about 8 cups of Jasmine per day. :tongue:
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Re: the 5th precept

Postby Vepacitta » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:27 am

Coffee, coffee, you make me glow
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