Buddhahood in Chan

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Astus
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:05 am

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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mindyourmind
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby mindyourmind » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:40 am

Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.

Namkhai Norbu

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Astus
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:24 am

Indeed, this discussion was started based on the different interpretations of Buddhahood in Chan. So it is a "debate topic". And unless it deteriorates into personal attacks I find it a very fruitful form of interaction.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:21 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Astus
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:17 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:26 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Astus
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:02 pm

I didn't mean they knew nothing about those works from India but they rather developed on their own way. The Maha-Prajnaparamita-Upadesa is one example, it was used heavily by both Sanlun and Tiantai, the Mahayana-Sraddhotpada-Sastra is another classic example used often by Huayan teachers.
Consider these works studied in the Korean Jogye Order's curriculum for novices (): Diamond Sutra, Heart Sutra, Vimalakirti Sutra, PP8000 Sutra, Avatamsaka Sutra, Shuramgama Sutra, Lotus Sutra, Nirvana Sutra, Awakening Faith in Mahayana, Abhidharma teachings, Huayan teachings, Seon teachings. And if that sounds a very broad range, the texts studied in depth are (): Flower Adornment Sutra, Awakening of Mahāyāna Faith, Sutra of the Heroic March Concentration, Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment, Platform Sutra, Diamond Sutra. They are all related to Chan/Seon and Huayan/Hwaeom in different ways. No Nagarjuna, no Vasubandhu, no Haribhadra.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:05 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Astus
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Location: Budapest

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:34 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:18 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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pueraeternus
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby pueraeternus » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:39 pm

Early Chinese schools do study the Indian treatises in great detail, such as Abhidharmakosa, the 3 principle Yogacara treastises, Satyasiddhi, etc. But after Fazang, Chinese Buddhists no longer look so much towards India and Central Asia.

Modern Chan masters are more circumspect about the notion of sudden enlightenment. I suspect it is due to the influence of Ven. Yinshun, who refocused Chinese Buddhism to the study of Indian sutras and shastras. For example, see this Q&A with Master Shengyen and HHDL - from the way he described the Chan notion of sudden enlightenment, it is not full samsaksambodhi, but rather attainment upon the bhumis.

http://www.dharmadrum.org/content/chan_ ... aspx?sn=16

Ven Dharmamitra has also mentioned in E-Sangha before that in his tradition, "sudden enlightenment" means attaining anutpattika-dharma-ksanti as an 8th Bhumi Bodhisattva, so it is the sense of being able to skip or quickly advance to the later stages, not full Buddhahood.
If you believe certain words, you believe their hidden arguments. When you believe something is right or wrong, true of false, you believe the assumptions in the words which express the arguments. Such assumptions are often full of holes, but remain most precious to the convinced.

- The Open-Ended Proof from The Panoplia Prophetica

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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Jnana » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:28 pm


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Malcolm
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:35 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Jnana
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Jnana » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:40 pm


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Astus
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Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:20 pm

Carl Bielefeldt in his "Dogen's Manual of Zen Meditation" discusses nicely (p. 87ff) that the Tiantai meditation system (the Mohezhiguan) that included both gradual and sudden methods (where the sudden part was the culmination of the practices) served as a model for Chan that took out only the sudden part - that is the Tathagata Dhyana (based on which it's called Tathagata/Rulai Chan), the vajropamasamadhi, the very state of buddhahood - and left behind the gradual stages. (Bielefeldt there also explains other important developments that are not relevant here but it's a good source to understand how Zen became like it is in Dogen's teachings and even today.) This shows that Zen is not at all without reasoning or doctrinal bases but what people see are teachings that were well established by that time and needed no apologetics - this is what is also called Patriarchal Chan, where the patriarchs are equal to living buddhas expressing the Teaching of the Unsurpassed Vehicle.

Zongmi, who emphasised the sudden enlightenment followed by gradual practice model, argued primarily against the Hongzhou and Baotang schools who taught instant liberation. In the end, however, the Hongzhou style won and from that appeared the Linji and Caodong schools to be the orthodox lineages then on.
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:41 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:44 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Astus
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Location: Budapest

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:24 pm

Some quotes on the view of Mahayana and the three kalpas long practice from different Chan works.

But the Buddha said, "Only after undergoing innumerable hardships for three asankhya kalpas did I achieve enlightenment," Why do you now say that simply beholding the mind and over-coming the three poisons is liberation?

The words of the Buddha are true. But the three-asankhya kalpas refer to the three poisoned states of mind. What we call asankhya in Sanskrit you call countless. Within these three poisoned states of mind are countless evil thoughts, And every thought lasts a kalpa. Such an infinity is what the Buddha meant by the three asankhya kalpas, Once the three poisons obscure your real self, how can you be called liberated until you overcome their countless evil thoughts? People who can transform the three poisons of greed, anger, and delusion into the three releases are said to pass through the three-sankhya kalpas. But people of this final age are the densest of fools. They don’t understand what the Tathagata really meant by the three-asankhya kalpas. They say enlightenment is only achieved after endless kalpas and thereby mislead disciples to retreat on the path to Buddhahood.

(Breakthrough Sermon)

Q: What is the difference between the Mahayana and the Supreme Vehicle?
A: The Mahayana is the Bodhisattva's vehicle, and the Supreme Yana is the Buddha's vehicle.

Q: How can one practice to attain these vehicles?
A: To practice the Bodhisattva's vehicle is simply Mahayana practice. After attaining the Bodhisattva stage, where there is no longer any need to practice, one arrives at the stage of no-practice, which is permanently still and deep and where there is neither increase nor decrease. This is called the Supreme Vehicle or the Buddha's Vehicle.

(Entering the Tao of Sudden Enlightenment)

The monk asked: How can one suddenly attain the Tao through practice?
The master said: If one really has some good reason and is very sincere, with no trace of falseness, there is, for him, no need to spend endless Asankhyeya-Kalpas in practice. The Mahaparinirvana Sutra says, "A man who sails a boat on the ocean can move very far in a short time in a favorable wind." If there were not a favorable wind, the boat would only stay in the same place for many years. Also, if the boat were to leak, it would submerge and the man would die. The situation of all sentient beings can be compared quite closely to this one. The Surangama Sutra says, "There is Samadhi of seeing all things as illusion, which, in a finger-snap, leads to the state beyond all study." Therefore, in this case, it is not necessary to understand the Three Vehicles nor to attain the Ten Stages of a Bodhisattva's Progress to become Buddha in one thought, thereby transcending Kalpas of practice suddenly.

(Practice and Attain Enlightenment After Understanding the Principles)

"Followers of the Way, if you take my viewpoint you’ll cut off the heads of the saṃbhogakāya and nirmāṇakāya buddhas; a bodhisattva who has attained the completed mind of the tenth stage will be like a mere hireling; a bodhisattva of equivalent enlightenment or a bodhisattva of marvelous enlightenment will be like pilloried prisoners; an arhat and a pratyekabuddha will be like privy fi lth; bodhi and nirvana will be like hitching posts for asses. Why is this so? Followers of the Way, it is only because you haven’t yet realized the emptiness of the three asamkhyeya kalpas that you have such obstacles."
(Record of Linji)
Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.



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Malcolm
Posts: 24173
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:05 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6615
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Buddhahood in Chan

Postby Astus » Thu Aug 25, 2011 11:23 pm

Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.




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