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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:05 pm 
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In Vajrayana refuge visualizations the back petal of the refuge tree has volumes of the Buddha's speech pilled high like a mountain emitting sounds (actually proclaiming the Dharma) and that visualization also has Dharma birds chirping Dharma and when wind blows the sounds of Dharma are spontaneously emitted.

These sounds are emitted as the visualization takes place in a Pure Land and these are attributes of these kinds of experiences in the Pure Lands.

Kirt

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:32 pm 
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I thought in visualization, all sound was mantra.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:34 pm 
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Pema Rigdzin wrote:
malalu wrote:
TMingyur wrote:

Hmh ... guru yoga ... I forgot that ...

Well in that case perhaps I do practice vajrayana ... at least a little bit ... :smile:

Kind regards


Hi, TMingyur.

Though it is one of many methods, I would have to say that Guru Yoga is at the very heart of Vajrayana practice.

:namaste:

M

Definitely. I can't speak for other traditions, but I know many Nyingma lamas of the past and present have said that guru yoga is the quickest and most profound path. I wouldn't be surprised if the masters of the other Tibetan traditions say the same.


All my Kagyu teachers have said the same thing. It's also important to note that ANY practice can be guru yoga. The deities you're visualizing are no different than your guru.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:34 pm 
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Yeshe wrote:
BFS wrote:
Visualization meditation has nothing to do with vision, as in eye consciousness. It is the mental consciousness that is used. Because we use mental consciousness, and not eye consciousness, depending on the practice, one is not limited to just imagined images, there is sound, there is even smell and feeling involved.



Understood. But these visualisations are heavily weighted in favour of the visual, which I find very limited.
It's all imputed anyway, but I have seen no texts or sadhanas which describe the other senses as extensively.

It depends on the sadhana's and the lineages.
I have notice for example that Nyingma sadhana's quite frequently integrate sound into the overall atmosphere of the mandala. Especially with wrathful yidams and their retinues.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:36 pm 
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Jangchup Donden wrote:
I thought in visualization, all sound was mantra.

yes. this is the pure representation of the 3 vajras.
Vajra body
Vajra speech
Vajra mind
as they are all related to the visualizations.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:35 pm 
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Jangchup Donden wrote:
I thought in visualization, all sound was mantra.


Post sadhana all sound is mantra, etc.

The instructions with Dharma sounds, during Vajrayana refuge etc. may be a Sakya thing, I'll check with my lama. It is very clearly mentioned in Sakya instructions.

Kirt

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"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 4:30 am 
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kirtu wrote:
Jangchup Donden wrote:
I thought in visualization, all sound was mantra.


Post sadhana all sound is mantra, etc.

The instructions with Dharma sounds, during Vajrayana refuge etc. may be a Sakya thing, I'll check with my lama. It is very clearly mentioned in Sakya instructions.

Kirt


I've been taught that in the Karma Kagyu ngondro when you're visualizing the refuge tree the texts of the sutras and tantras behind Vajradhara are all emanating the sounds of their texts as well.

In my teacher's ngondro it says it right there in the text.

--Travis


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