I know ... or I don't

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I know ... or I don't

Postby Sönam » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:11 am

I hesitate (also it's not exactely what happens) to post that in the Dzogchen forum ...
In the past, I use to be a "thinker" and did use a lot the reflection process, "if that is that, then this is this" ... or the kind. For a long time now this kind of mechanic did'nt happen, there is no more such a processus. In situations, I know ... or I simply don't know, but it's hard in that last case to "try to change it", things are simply there or are not. Sometime they are not there at all and I feel stupidity (also it does not disturb me). So also sometime I'm confident and happy and it seems easy and light, sometime it's heavy and empty (nothingness). This kind of behavior did'nt came up in a "intelligent" process where I could "see the light", but it happens in an elusive progression.
The reason I speak about is that, also I could "imagine" it's a normal progression, I also sometime feels it's old age and lazyness ... so I'm looking for echoes.

Hope this subject is not boring ...
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby alpha » Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:58 am

Lots of Buddhists are thinkers and you can see that from their use of language which is the language of books ,cold and conceptual.

I wonder what happens when their teacher asks them to look at their mind.Do they say "oh...my mind is non dual." or "oh...my mind is self aware and is beyond existence and non existence" or "oh...my mind is pure from the beginning...etc...."

I bet lots of these people if you ask them to look and tell you what do they see they usually fall into their language trap and cover what is there with the terms and words learned from books...

It depends what your aim in life is .If your aim is to become the second library of alexandria and become a teacher with a large following and loved for your radiance and wit than is probably good to accumulate tons and tons of knowledge .
But some would argue that if you dont know the texts or are not learned enough you will not be able to explain the abysmal topics of the highest paths to people.You dont have to.
In the past there were examples of teachers who didn't have much book learning.They managed to point out the essence in a very clean and direct way.
You dont have to be abundant in your language and sophisticated in order to convey something which is not sophisticated in the first place.

when teachers talk about mind for the sake of clarity they brake it down into its qualities..transparency,spontaneity and levels etc......But when you look you dont see any of these.
If you see something than you have to start all over again...
AOM
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby muni » Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:32 am

:namaste: Respect for the teaching need nothing to add.
Last edited by muni on Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We have to go beyond theories no matter how sacred they might seem.
Theories can create an illusory distance between us and enlightenment.
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby White Lotus » Wed Aug 24, 2011 3:45 pm

butterflies...
love letters blown on the wind.

it is tough sometimes Sonam, your doing fine. i believe that things get easier with practice, problems fall away. i am sometimes afflicted myself, though not too often thank goodness. were it not for my illness, i would never have explored Buddhism, nor have had the time to do so.

hang in there.

Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby Sönam » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:10 am

thank you friends ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:38 am

Tashi delek,

Will make the replies between the lines.

Mutsog Marro
KY


alpha wrote:
It depends what your aim in life is .If your aim is to become the second library of alexandria and become a teacher with a large following and loved for your radiance and wit than is probably good to accumulate tons and tons of knowledge .
But some would argue that if you dont know the texts or are not learned enough you will not be able to explain the abysmal topics of the highest paths to people.You dont have to.
In the past there were examples of teachers who didn't have much book learning.They managed to point out the essence in a very clean and direct way.
You dont have to be abundant in your language and sophisticated in order to convey something which is not sophisticated in the first place.

Our Lopon La, H.E Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, points out that the learning of the Dzogchen is very important, done with our memory. This is done with our Rigpa, the Rigpa of learning. Without this there is no clear understanding of the Dzogchen practice.
So at first learning, then insight, Wisdom and then the abiding in the awareness of the Natural State.
Of course we know the acedemics with their high titles like prof. etc. who are very wellknown in the Tibetan script but do not practice the Dharma at all. They do possess some status within the Tibetan Traditions out of respect for their title, translations and money. Some of those acedemics told me that they never have seen the Bardo State, so if it would therefore exist? Well these people are very funny because they dwell inside the Dharma as nearly atheists, etc. ........ :shock:




THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby muni » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:26 am

This tread can be possible a honor, a light on the practicioners who could/can even not read or write, still are able to understand the essence, the meaning; through recieving jewel instructions from the wise and the basis of deep trust in nakedness of nature.

Whether elaborating scholars or these nature practicioners, we follow the top of our nose.
We have to go beyond theories no matter how sacred they might seem.
Theories can create an illusory distance between us and enlightenment.
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:19 am

muni wrote:This tread can be possible a honor, a light on the practicioners who could/can even not read or write, still are able to understand the essence, the meaning; through recieving jewel instructions from the wise and the basis of deep trust in nakedness of nature.

Whether elaborating scholars or these nature practicioners, we follow the top of our nose.



Tashi delek,

Yes see it also very important that trust in the Master / Rigdzin, who is the source of the teachings.
Well there are 3 levels of students with their 3 different kind of motivations.

1. High motivation to help with Compassion - High level of understanding Dzogchen
2. Average / medium motivation in helping with Compassion and Wisdom - medium level of understanding Dharma matters
3. Low motivation to help sentient beings - low level of understanding Dharma matters.

And here one can easy see the karma of the students, if they are ready to receive what kind of teachings.
To understand the essence can be done with our brains and memory but to practice that is done based on these pre-studies.

So all in all, Dzogchen is only a case for the best gifted student(s) and this would be including:

- A high motivation
- Very good karma (in previous life already a Dzogchenpa)
- Very excellent intelligence for intellectual understanding

Therefore Dzogchen is suited for only the best students and this is based on reality and not on discrimination.
If Dzogchen is not understood then this is depending on the lack of the above mentioned 3 points.

But if one has a very skilled Dzogchen Master, then this is also based on good karma, collected in previous lives and in that way a good base can be laid in this life. And not finished Dzogchen in this life there is a chance in the Bardo and for the minimum there is in next life Dzogchen Teachings available and so here is Liberating then also possible.

The main point is that we can be connected in this life with Dzogchen and that is a very important case, i guess so. But nevertheless not suited for everybody.

Best wishes

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby muni » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:19 am

Dzogchen is not in the field of mind intellectual conditioned thinking. If so the meaning remains hidden.

In the instructions of the masters is this clear*.

Blowing coconuts then expecting they smoothly dissolve as soapbells in sky.
Last edited by muni on Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
We have to go beyond theories no matter how sacred they might seem.
Theories can create an illusory distance between us and enlightenment.
muni
 
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby Sönam » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:26 am

Master Kunkhyen Longchen Rabjam said :
For the categories of Mind, Expanse, and Direct Transmission,
the consummate meaning of the heart essence
is that of ineffability, openness, spontaneous pesence, and oneness.
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby muni » Sat Aug 27, 2011 10:56 am

There must be deep insight, yes!

Intellect is tool, need not to be rejected, like nothing to reject. Still is not priciple. To be able to recognise nature of conditioned concepts, yes! And able to respect the teacher his generosity of transmission/instructions!

And open heart, evenmindedness, not possesing lots of critical thoughts and so on. Someone has Longchen Rabjampa his explanation about?

Merely repeating and repeating and digging in trying to understand by mind is not going to realize what is "beyond" intellectual conceptual phenomena rather easely keep us in delusory attachments.

So is said by many masters and disciples during centuries. Therefore the metaphor of the coconuts.
We have to go beyond theories no matter how sacred they might seem.
Theories can create an illusory distance between us and enlightenment.
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:24 pm

muni wrote:Dzogchen is not in the field of mind intellectual conditioned thinking. If so the meaning remains hidden.

In the instructions of the masters is this clear*.

Blowing coconuts then expecting they smoothly dissolve as soapbells in sky.



Tashi delek,

Dzogchen is also in the field of intellectual thinking / understanding and memorizing.
This becauses Rigpa does ALSO mean intellectual understanding. :o

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby muni » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:10 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
muni wrote:Dzogchen is not in the field of mind intellectual conditioned thinking. If so the meaning remains hidden.

In the instructions of the masters is this clear*.

Blowing coconuts then expecting they smoothly dissolve as soapbells in sky.



Tashi delek,

Dzogchen is also in the field of intellectual thinking / understanding and memorizing.
This becauses Rigpa does ALSO mean intellectual understanding. :o

Mutsog Marro
KY


that is right, Rig Pa has more than one meaning. Rig Pa is also for school children, science and other.

Intellectual understanding of "Dzogchen" can that? It is not conceptual mind. In general studies and practices Mahayana-Vajrayana..) one sharpens mind. Of course, very important. "Dzogchen" is not in limitations of apprehended, so is there told.
We have to go beyond theories no matter how sacred they might seem.
Theories can create an illusory distance between us and enlightenment.
muni
 
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby White Lotus » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:40 pm

there is an intellectual understanding of Rigpa, this can be called view, but is not actually the basis of what it is. intellect is only a finger pointing at the moon. rigpa is normal seeing. seeing things as an adult or child, no need to know that this seeing is actually emptiness, just see. you always have.

can clarity/awareness be separated from emptiness?.. no, they are the same thing. therefore both madhyamaka and dzogpo chenpa are one. they always have been. yogacara's mind and madhyamaka's emptiness are one. we are all talking about the same thing... but, important difference... nothing special is needed for dzogchen. its just seeing the way you always have, without attaining anything special, or having any kind of strange wisdom it is already complete and cannot be stained by delusion. you have always been a dzogpa because you have always had normal awareness. even a little child is a dzogpa master.

you are a buddha, but perhaps no one ever told you this. you always have been. normal seeing is buddhahood, some people know that this normal seeing is non dual emptiness, however big words and clever people are no closer to the truth than anyone typing at their computer. were all the same.

you know... coconut water is supposed to be very pure.

(thats how i understand today.)

best wishes, Tom. :rolleye:

(since i am new to dzogpo chenpa, please correct me if i am wrong. but how can i be wrong since everything is rigpa... including delusion.)
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby Sönam » Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:11 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
muni wrote:Dzogchen is not in the field of mind intellectual conditioned thinking. If so the meaning remains hidden.

In the instructions of the masters is this clear*.

Blowing coconuts then expecting they smoothly dissolve as soapbells in sky.



Tashi delek,

Dzogchen is also in the field of intellectual thinking / understanding and memorizing.
This becauses Rigpa does ALSO mean intellectual understanding. :o

Mutsog Marro
KY


this is right, one can also think ... but why would one effort to think while it happens spontaneously?

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby White Lotus » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:14 pm

perhaps we confirm the path/what we see, by thinking, but surely the path is no path. no requirement whatsoever. not even the requirement for awareness.

Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby Pero » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:45 pm

White Lotus wrote:(since i am new to dzogpo chenpa, please correct me if i am wrong. but how can i be wrong since everything is rigpa... including delusion.)

If you're interested, get a teacher. Otherwise it would be better to stop telling people what things are like.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:07 am

Sönam wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
muni wrote:Dzogchen is not in the field of mind intellectual conditioned thinking. If so the meaning remains hidden.

In the instructions of the masters is this clear*.

Blowing coconuts then expecting they smoothly dissolve as soapbells in sky.



Tashi delek,

Dzogchen is also in the field of intellectual thinking / understanding and memorizing.
This becauses Rigpa does ALSO mean intellectual understanding. :o

Mutsog Marro
KY


this is right, one can also think ... but why would one effort to think while it happens spontaneously?

Sönam


Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

We have to study in advance the Dzogchen practice.
Here is meant by me the intellectual study, which in turn can be a meaning of the many Rigpa' s there are.
Without this study is the " recognizing" State regarding Rigpa much more difficult to realize.

So what is arising and what are the signs etc.?
Well this has to be studied under the protection of the Rigdzin. :bow:

Best wishes with your practice

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:10 am

White Lotus wrote:perhaps we confirm the path/what we see, by thinking, but surely the path is no path. no requirement whatsoever. not even the requirement for awareness.

Tom.



Tashi delek,

Please explain:

- not even the requirement for awareness.
- perhaps we confirm the path/what we see, by thinking
- but surely the path is no path


Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: I know ... or I don't

Postby Quiet Heart » Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 am

:tongue:
Here's a story I read somewhere.
There used to be a teacher who would use this trick to try to teach his students.
He would hold up a box of wooden matches and wave it around before his students. He would yell at them asking, "Who can tell me what this is?"
Eventually one student would be brave enough to say, "Teacher, that is a box of wooden matches you are holding." The teacher would then scream and throw the matchbox at them.
He would scream, "No, you fool, matchbox is a NAME, nothing but a vibration in the air! When that matchbox came flying at you did you think it was nothing but a vibration in the air! If you did, then why did you duck to get away from it?"
The way I understood the story is that only a few students actually got the point of why he did such a crazy thing, but those that did get the point were ready for more advanced teaching.
So...."you either know...or you don't"
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
Edited by Gary Gach
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