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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:04 pm 
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"Generally speaking, Zen teachers nowadays instruct people by setting up rules or using devices. believing that without devices they can't manage, behaving as if without them it's impossible to instruct anyone, they're unable to teach by simply pointing things out directly. To teach people [this way], unable to manage without devices, is 'devices Zen.'
"Others tell students pursuing this teaching that it's no good unless they rouse a great ball of doubt and succeed in breaking through it. 'No matter what,' they tell them, 'you've got to rouse a ball of doubt!' They don't teach, 'Abide in the Unborn Buddha Mind!' [but instead] cause people without any ball of doubt to saddle themselves with one, making them exchange the Buddha Mind for a ball of doubt. A mistaken business, isn't it!"

(Bankei Yotaku, tr. Peter Haskel)

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:47 pm 
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Astus wrote:
"Generally speaking, Zen teachers nowadays instruct people by setting up rules or using devices. believing that without devices they can't manage, behaving as if without them it's impossible to instruct anyone, they're unable to teach by simply pointing things out directly. To teach people [this way], unable to manage without devices, is 'devices Zen.'
"Others tell students pursuing this teaching that it's no good unless they rouse a great ball of doubt and succeed in breaking through it. 'No matter what,' they tell them, 'you've got to rouse a ball of doubt!' They don't teach, 'Abide in the Unborn Buddha Mind!' [but instead] cause people without any ball of doubt to saddle themselves with one, making them exchange the Buddha Mind for a ball of doubt. A mistaken business, isn't it!"

(Bankei Yotaku, tr. Peter Haskel)


If the teachers are not enlightened, they cannot teach direct path.

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NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:02 pm 
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LastLegend wrote:
If the teachers are not enlightened, they cannot teach direct path.


Neither can they teach Zen.

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"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:25 pm 
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Astus wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
If the teachers are not enlightened, they cannot teach direct path.


Neither can they teach Zen.



Guess there are not many teachers of Zen, then.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:44 pm 
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There is nothing wrong with using expedients/devices if it helps beings. Helping beings is what Buddhism is all about. This is explained in chapter 2 of the Lotus Sutra.
:namaste:


Last edited by Kyosan on Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:09 pm 
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Hooray for Bankai! He always knew what to say.

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Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:53 pm 
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It is not that there is a problem with expedients. But Zen - unlike the other paths - is about directly seeing the nature of mind. Using methods and techniques to gradually come to realisation and instantly accessing the buddha-mind are both valid. Bankei was among those few who kept alive that tradition of Bodhidharma, Huineng, Mazu and Linji to teach the immediate way. On the other hand, Hakuin - who lived a bit later - established a gradual practice of training with koans.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:09 pm 
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Posts: 331
Location: USA, Tucson
Astus wrote:
It is not that there is a problem with expedients. But Zen - unlike the other paths - is about directly seeing the nature of mind. Using methods and techniques to gradually come to realisation and instantly accessing the buddha-mind are both valid. Bankei was among those few who kept alive that tradition of Bodhidharma, Huineng, Mazu and Linji to teach the immediate way. On the other hand, Hakuin - who lived a bit later - established a gradual practice of training with koans.


I think that the teachers should use whatever methods they feel are most helpful to their students. Different teachers might have different ideas on what the most effective methods are. That's one reason why we see such a large variety of methods in Buddhism. And different methods are meant for different types of people.
:namaste:


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