Hua Tou and Dzogchen

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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:22 am

ngodrup wrote:The thing to appreciate, it seems to my mind, is that recognition
according to trekchod would be essentially equivalent to the seeing
of an Arya Being on the Path of Seeing or a first bhumi Bodhisattva.
I very much doubt that all these facile comparisons of Dzogchen to
Chan or Zen bear much resemblance to the actual seeing of an Arya.
... but I may be mistaken. ;)



No, the reason is that one does not need to realize emptiness in order to properly practice tregchö, emptiness may remain an inference. But one must have experience of this unconditioned clarity in order to practice tregchö. Eventually, if you practice tregchö long enough you will realize emptiness because that insight will automatically arise within your meditation, and this is predicated on understanding the view of original purity .

N
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:46 am

Namdrol wrote:
Inge wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
This is referring to appearance and emptiness, object side.

N

I see. Could you explain a little what is meant by clarity?



"Clarity" means the fundamental aspect of the mind that illuminates objects for the mind separate from the content of the mind. That clarity is very difficult to discover.


Tashi delek,

In addition to this explanation about clarity.

Clarity is self (arising)-illuminating. The lamp illuminate the outside but does illuminate also itself.

Clarity does belong to the Thogal visions. In this State (of the visions ) of Thogal one is aware about the sounds, lights (4 Lamps) and rays (forms).
This State is Yermed (inseparable connected) with Trekchod or the emptiness aspect, which forms the base of all there is.

These visions or manifestations are unceasing and do appear spontaneously or are self-emanating.One has to realize that all these visions are of empty nature and that they are an expression of the Base itself.

They appear in 4 modes or categories:

1. The sounds, rays and lights spontaneously existing within the Base ( gZhi) of the Natural State
2. Their arising due to secondary causes (rkyen) created within the experience of the Natural State
3. The arising of the sounds, rays and lights during the practice of the path (lam)
4. Their arising during the bardo.


This clarity is mostly explaimed in the Dzogchen Semsde teachings
The emptiness is mostly explained in the Longde teachings
The best Dzogchen teachings are inside the Mengagde teachings where the unification is explained or the State of Yermed.

One is also aware about the sounds, lights and rays (forms) in the Bardo State, where one must see the visions as not outside but as a projection of the self experiencing or self-awareness State.

So to be aware / experiencing these lights in life, like in the dark retreat, will mean that one can be liberated in the Bardo State by recognizing because one is trained in to be in the Natural State.

Mutsog Marro
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:50 am

Fa Dao wrote:. Eventually one breaks through and the separateness of mind, body and world drops away leaving one with a deep understanding of shunyata.


Tashi delek,

We know in Buddhism different approaches to emptiness and the understanding and the result is different according:

1. Dzogchen
2. Tantra
3. Sutra

So if one is understanding Shunyata according Sutra that is mostly based on a form of Madyamaka. That emptiness is without an understanding of the semsde aspect, where the lights are explained.

So according Dzogchen this is not a perfect point of view.

Mutsog Marro
KY
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:54 am

Namdrol wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:In the hua tou method one is given a meditation topic/question. For example, "Who is dragging this corpse around?" or "Who is chanting Buddhas name?" You are instructed to continually ask this question until one pointedness is achieved. Great doubt is developed from asking a question that does not have an answer that the logical/rational/thinking mind can answer. One keeps pushing and pushing to come up with an answer nonetheless. Eventually one breaks through and the separateness of mind, body and world drops away leaving one with a deep understanding of shunyata.


Tregcho is based on recognizing the nature of mind directly, and staying in that state.

N


Tashi delek,

In addition to the above mentioned.

Trekchod is mainly based on the emptiness aspect of the mind as well the realizing that the objects are also empty.
But to rest in that State without the self-emergent visions is not complete because the Natural State is always connected to emptiness and clearness.

We devide the Natural State into these 2 States, only for the purpose of explanations.

Mutsog Marro
KY
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:04 am

Namdrol wrote:
Inge wrote:
And what does it mean to discover this clarity? Can this clarity be seen, or is it experienced like some kind of state, or something else entirely?


Clarity is the cognitive aspect of the mind that knows objects. So in sense, what one is trying to see is the knowing knower itself, apart from what it knows.



Tashi delek,

In addition to the above stated.

Clarity is the (self) awarenes aspect of the Natural State, which in turn is based on the Nature of Mind, which is there in a spontaneous way. It is always connected on the emptiness aspect as inseparable connected.


If it is cognitive then it has the self arising Wisdom of the Wisdom Lights.
Like explained before, we do not see it then as "knowing" like a self does understand something etc.
It is more spontaneous self arising Wisdom which "shows" the essence of the vision, like for instance empty, without knowing an object etc.

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:07 am

Inge wrote:
Namdrol wrote:The difficulty is that a knower is conditioned. This clarity is unconditoned.


In what way is a knower conditioned?
Does conditioned mean that it depends on something? I only know the term "condition" as in causes and condition, but I'm not certain about the distinction between the two.

Must the cognitive aspect recognize itself?



Tashi delek,

It is like a lamp which can illuminate an object, but on top of that the lamp illuminates also itself.
This light is self emanating and is inseparable connected to the Tong Cha aspect or the emptiness aspect of the Nature of Mind.

Hope this helps too

Mutsog marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:15 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Trekchod is mainly based on the emptiness aspect of the mind as well the realizing that the objects are also empty.


KY[/color]


That is one way to explain it, but not the best way.
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:31 am

Namdrol wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Trekchod is mainly based on the emptiness aspect of the mind as well the realizing that the objects are also empty.


KY[/color]


That is one way to explain it, but not the best way.



Tashi delek,

Well, maybe are there ways that my teachers or ego did forgot to mention regarding the description of the Abiding State of Trekchod.
So i am always interested to hear more explanations about the State(s) of Trekchod.

You are welcome to elucidate then this Trekchod State more.......

Best wishes

Mutosg Marro
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:31 pm

Shattering the great doubt means becoming free from attachment to concepts. That is seeing the nature of mind, entering the gate of no-gate, experiencing non-conceptual mind. This is the equivalent of pointing out instruction. How one continues to practice is another question.
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:38 pm

Astus wrote:Shattering the great doubt means becoming free from attachment to concepts. That is seeing the nature of mind, entering the gate of no-gate, experiencing non-conceptual mind. This is the equivalent of pointing out instruction. How one continues to practice is another question.



Tashi delek,

Thansk for your reply.

Some questions:

- Free from attachment to concepts does mean?
- Seeing the Nature of Mind will be with the eyes?
- Are there also more ways to see the Nature of the Mind?
- Which mind would be here meant?
- What are pointing out instructions ?
- Where is this shattering of the great doubt explained?
- What is doubt and about what is one doubtfull?

Best wishes

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:10 pm

It's always easier to question than answer ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:15 pm

Sönam wrote:It's always easier to question than answer ...

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

In the question must be the answer
When we make the question the answer is there
When i make the question i mostly am aware of the answer(s)
But is the other party on 1 line with my suggestion? Well that is the question.......... :)

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Sönam » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:26 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sönam wrote:It's always easier to question than answer ...

Sönam



Tashi delek,

When we make the question the answer is there

Mutsog Marro
KY


In any case ... in any form :quoteunquote:

Sônam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Astus » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:39 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Some questions:

- Free from attachment to concepts does mean?
- Seeing the Nature of Mind will be with the eyes?
- Are there also more ways to see the Nature of the Mind?
- Which mind would be here meant?
- What are pointing out instructions ?
- Where is this shattering of the great doubt explained?
- What is doubt and about what is one doubtfull?


I think you better look into this yourself as your questions are far beyond a simple post. And when you have some questions left you can go to the Zen forum section to start a topic for it.

Online:

Essentials of Practice and Enlightenment for Beginnersby Master Hanshan Deqing
Some teachings by Ven. Hsu Yun
Overview of Hwadu Meditation

Books to read by Ven. Sheng-yen:

Shattering the Great Doubt: The Chan Practice of Huatou
Hoofprint of the Ox: Principles of the Chan Buddhist Path as Taught by a Modern Chinese Master
Illuminating silence: the practice of Chinese Zen
Attaining the way: a guide to the practice of Chan Buddhism
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:02 pm

Astus wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Some questions:

- Free from attachment to concepts does mean?
- Seeing the Nature of Mind will be with the eyes?
- Are there also more ways to see the Nature of the Mind?
- Which mind would be here meant?
- What are pointing out instructions ?
- Where is this shattering of the great doubt explained?
- What is doubt and about what is one doubtfull?


I think you better look into this yourself as your questions are far beyond a simple post. And when you have some questions left you can go to the Zen forum section to start a topic for it.

Online:

Essentials of Practice and Enlightenment for Beginnersby Master Hanshan Deqing
Some teachings by Ven. Hsu Yun
Overview of Hwadu Meditation

Books to read by Ven. Sheng-yen:

Shattering the Great Doubt: The Chan Practice of Huatou
Hoofprint of the Ox: Principles of the Chan Buddhist Path as Taught by a Modern Chinese Master
Illuminating silence: the practice of Chinese Zen
Attaining the way: a guide to the practice of Chan Buddhism


Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Will take a look at your posted links

Best wishes

Mutosg Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:43 am

Namdrol wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:From my limited understanding of chan realizing the nature of mind is realizing emtiness. So then in your estimation you would say it is similar to Tragcho?



The nature of the mind is not just emptiness, it is clarity and emptiness inseparable. The emphasis in tregchö is on this.



Tashi delek,

When i understood it well, then in Trekchod is cultivated, Rigpa in a non-dual egoless awreness. The cultivation to that state is path Rigpa, because it would be different than to be in the Natural State, this developing with its methods etc.


Best wishes

Mutsog Marro
KY.
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HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:11 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:When i understood it well...


Hey Kalden,

I've seen you use this phrase from time to time and it always seems like what you intend to be saying is "if I understood it well" or "if I understood it correctly" or something along those lines. I think you mean to be saying "if" rather than "when." Just trying to help ease the language barrier, so please don't take offense.

kalden yungdrung wrote:Mutsog Marro
[/color]


I've also been meaning to ask you, out of curiosity, what the above (Tibetan?) phrase means?
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Clarence » Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:43 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:When i understood it well...


Hey Kalden,

I've seen you use this phrase from time to time and it always seems like what you intend to be saying is "if I understood it well" or "if I understood it correctly" or something along those lines. I think you mean to be saying "if" rather than "when." Just trying to help ease the language barrier, so please don't take offense.


That is because the Dutch have the same word for if and when (when used in those structures). A lot of Dutch speakers have problems with it.
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:47 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:When i understood it well...


Hey Kalden,

I've seen you use this phrase from time to time and it always seems like what you intend to be saying is "if I understood it well" or "if I understood it correctly" or something along those lines. I think you mean to be saying "if" rather than "when." Just trying to help ease the language barrier, so please don't take offense.

kalden yungdrung wrote:Mutsog Marro
[/color]


I've also been meaning to ask you, out of curiosity, what the above (Tibetan?) phrase means?



Tashi delek,

- Yes, if i did understood it well does mean, that in case i did understood the teachings wrong, my answers here will be alo wrong. And it could be that i -
- could have misunderstood my teachings, that is possible........ :shock:
- Mutsog Marro is Zhang Zhung language, which is the maternal language of the Zhang Zhung kingdom(s), 18 in total, and it does mean:" May all be
- auspicious".

Mutsog Marro
KY
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THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
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HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Thu Aug 25, 2011 10:44 am

Clarence wrote:
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
kalden yungdrung wrote:When i understood it well...


Hey Kalden,

I've seen you use this phrase from time to time and it always seems like what you intend to be saying is "if I understood it well" or "if I understood it correctly" or something along those lines. I think you mean to be saying "if" rather than "when." Just trying to help ease the language barrier, so please don't take offense.


That is because the Dutch have the same word for if and when (when used in those structures). A lot of Dutch speakers have problems with it.


Ahhh, very interesting.
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