Rinchen Terzod & Dudjom Tersar indexes

[conebeckham]

Orgyen Dorje Den most definitely maintains Dudjom Tersar traditions here in the Bay Area, as do Lama Tharchin's folks at Pema Osel Ling and Chagdud Rinpoche's disciples.

They may also support or practice other Ter Cycles, but Dudjom Tersar is a a big part of the Bay Area Nyingma scene, probably the primary part, in fact.

[Adamantine]

But when the whole Dudjom tersar is given...

Who holds this these days?.

Thinley Norbu Rinpoche (Dudjom Rinpoche son) and his sons Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche and Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche, Chatral Rinpoche and many others.

/magnus

You make it sound like Shenpen Dawa RInpoche is Thinley Norbu Rinpoche's son but Shenpen Dawa RInpoche is the younger son of HH Dudjom RInpoche, --the son he had with his second wife/consort Sangyum Kusho la. So Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche and Thinley Norbu RInpoche are half-brothers. My understanding is that towards the end of his life HH Dudjom RInpoche made Shenpen Dawa RInpoche his regent-- which is why he is the head of all of the official centers that his father established in the U.S. and Europe. Thinley Norbu Rinpoche of course holds the lineage in that he can transmit the full cycles of Dudjom as can his own sons Dzogsar Khyentse Rinpoche and Garab Dorje Rinpoche. And Chatral Rinpoche of course.

Then yes, there are the Dudjom Yangsis, from Tibet and Bhutan respectively. And yes there are many great Lamas and Rinpoches that are empowered to transmit Dudjom tersar wangs but it is hard to know how many hold the entire cycles. Lama Dawa Chodaak Rinpoche and Lama Tharchin probably in the west, Bhaka Tulku Rinpoche and Tulku Pema Wangyal perhaps.. but there must be quite a few more in India, Bhutan, Nepal and Tibet whom I am not familiar with.

[Adamantine]

also in NE Khenpo Tsewang Rinpoche who was his secretary once (padmasambhava.org).

Khenpo Tsewang Rinpoche was a close representative once and did write the recently published biography of HH but there are some significant historical errors in there I have learned. And when he and his brother started their own center after HH passed on they really stopped propagating the Dudjom Tersar, and began propagating older terma lineages--mainly Tsasum Lingpa's.

[Adamantine]

Who is propegating it ?

Garab Dorje RInpoche is the grandson of HH Dudjom RInpoche and he is usually in Asia, he leads retreats and gives wangs in Malaysia and Bhutan quite often and he comes to India as well-- usually leading a Troma retreat every year in Bodh Gaya. Receiving the Tersar from any of the immediate family of HH would certainly be ideal. Garab Dorje is the main person touring around and propagating the Dudjom tersar lineage widely in a public way in Asia. There are many that hold the lineage though, I am sure Trulshik Rinpoche does, but I will ask and find out more if you need.

[ngodrup]

Adamantine wrote:

"My understanding is that towards the end of his life HH Dudjom RInpoche
made Shenpen Dawa RInpoche his regent-- which is why he is the head of all
of the official centers that his father established in the U.S. and Europe."

I think this is an overstatement. I'm quite sure Shenpen Rinpoche is an amazing
Lama, but Orgyen Dorje Den in Alameda, CA is part of Pacific Yeshe Nyingpo--
H. H. Dudjom Rinpoche's personal organization in the West Coast of the USA--
is headed by Gyatrul Rinpoche.

Also, since Dungse Thrinley Norbu Rinpoche is an emanation of Longchenpa,
the direct rebirth of Dudjom Lingpa's eldest son and regent Tulku Trime Oser,
and received HHDR's Wisdom Mind directly ("From now one we are the same.")--
it is hard to make sense of claim that Shenphen Rinpoche is the *real* regent.

It may be that since Thinley Norbu Rinpoche is so famously reclusive, others
are functionally regents.

Again, only honor to Shenphen Rinpoche.

[Adamantine]

I think this is an overstatement. I'm quite sure Shenpen Rinpoche is an amazing
Lama, but Orgyen Dorje Den in Alameda, CA is part of Pacific Yeshe Nyingpo--
H. H. Dudjom Rinpoche's personal organization in the West Coast of the USA--
is headed by Gyatrul Rinpoche.

Also, since Dungse Thrinley Norbu Rinpoche is an emanation of Longchenpa,
the direct rebirth of Dudjom Lingpa's eldest son and regent Tulku Trime Oser,
and received HHDR's Wisdom Mind directly ("From now one we are the same.")--
it is hard to make sense of claim that Shenphen Rinpoche is the *real* regent.

It may be that since Thinley Norbu Rinpoche is so famously reclusive, others
are functionally regents.

Again, only honor to Shenphen Rinpoche.

It wouldn't appear that there is any room for debate: according to old students HH Dudjom Rinpoche announced this publicly in France. This doesn't lessen the realization of other lineage holders, but this was the wishes of HH Dudjom Rinpoche at the end of his life. Your various hypothesis seem to try to deny this but it is apparently history which you can check out with any of HH Dudjom Rinpoche's students that were there at that time (many of them French naturally) or with Tulku Pema Wangyal who was most likely there. This in no way lessens the stature of a luminous wisdom holder such as Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, but if it is simply the wishes of the Terton himself, what virtue is there in denying it?

I have no desire to raise hackles and I revere TNR with my whole being, but I think it is good to honor the facts.

[username]

Firtly Khenpo brothers never stopped DT and anyone wanting to do DT needs one of the DT ngondros which can be had from the khenpo brothers many different centers which Khenpo Tsewang still visits (http://www.padmasambhava.org/cal.html) as well as further cycles for those who finish it. Also apart from the few names in the west (inluding Chatral's Umzey loppon.info) there are hundreds of masters in India and Himalayas who recieved DT from Dudjom Rinpoche (mind emanation one, Jigdrel Yeshe) alone. Next, for North India there are many masters in Mindrolling alone, Dehradun, who can transmit. Next, Dudjom Rinpoche in a famous letter announced that his vajra regent and the person to take over the center of his mandala will be Chatral Rinpoche. Also Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche was his father in his last life and there were certain promises Dujom had bestowed upon him going back. Dudjom Rinpoche's second wife helped prolong Dudjom Rnipoche's life, helped and encouraged him a lot and lots of dharma centers and activities which exist are due to her benevolant activities. Finally as Dudjom Rinpoche said, families are like meeting strangers in the market place for a while, before everyone disperses and one goes away alone, again. Despite appearances in your judgmental eyes, official this and that, family relations and whatever other blurbs goes round in conceptual heads, if you ask the highest Nyingma masters in private who is the most realized amongst the old timers they mostly respond honestly from their own realization: Chatral, Trulshik and Thinley Norbu.

[ngodrup]

"...but it is simply the wishes of the Terton himself, so what virtue is there in denying it? "

Again, no bias or real dispute here. I am simply not in France. So I ask more to satisfy my curiosity.
If the mater were really so cut and dried, then why did Gyatrul Rinpoche not simply step aside?
Why would he not be delighted to fulfill the wishes of the Terton and embodyment of Guru Rinpoche?

My idea is that there is no single head of the DT lineage any more than there is one Yangsi of
Dudjom Rinpoche himself. And that is all I will say, because I do not deny any valid Dudjom
Lineage holder-- especially not from the blood lineage.

[username]

The one clear head of DT lineage is the one Dudjom Jigdrel Yeshe determined so in his letter, ie: Chatral Rinpoche. And after him the lineage head will be the current mind emanation of Dudjom Lingpa, Dudjom's grandson, that Chatral Rinpoche has solely recognized and is training in his three year retreat currently, ie: Dudjom Sangye Pema (Osel).

[Pema Rigdzin]

also in NE Khenpo Tsewang Rinpoche who was his secretary once (padmasambhava.org).

Khenpo Tsewang Rinpoche was a close representative once and did write the recently published biography of HH but there are some significant historical errors in there I have learned. And when he and his brother started their own center after HH passed on they really stopped propagating the Dudjom Tersar, and began propagating older terma lineages--mainly Tsasum Lingpa's.

Yes, Khenpo Tsewang Dongyal Rinpoche was Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche's attendant and translator for some time, and he was also enthroned as abbot of two of Dudjom Rinpoche's Dharma centers: first at the Wishfulfilling Nyingmapa Institute in Bouddhnath and then later at Dorje Nyingpo in France. Khenpo Rinpoche was very close to Dudjom Rinpoche and considers him one of his root gurus and neither he nor his brother the late Khenchen Palden Sherab Rinpoche ever stopped propagating the Dudjom Tersar. In fact, the short Dudjom Tersar ngondro is the standard ngondro of Padmasambhava Buddhist Center and Khenpo Tsewang continues to transmit the complete Tersar tradition. It's only been about 3 yrs I think since he and Khenchen Palden bestowed the entire Dudjom Tersar wangchen in Alameda at Orgyen Dorje Den.

Like many other lamas, however, Khenpo Tsewang also transmits many other Nyingma terma traditions - in his case, chiefly the termas of Tsasum Lingpa and Mipham Rinpoche. You must understand that since his birth Rinpoche has been steeped in the terma of Tsasum Lingpa - not only has Rinpoche's family always been tightly intertwined with Tsasum Lingpa's Gochen monastery, but Rinpoche is also a tulku of a former abbot of Gochen, Khenpo Sherab Khyentse - so he and Khenchen Palden have always been involved in propagating that lineage. If anything, their attempts to do that were only postponed by the Communist invasion in which they lost contact with an important chunk of that collection when they fled Tibet with their mother, father, and two sisters and so they had to spend the next few decades tracking it all down so they could really begin propagating it.

As for the so-called "significant inaccuracies" in Khenpo Tsewang's biography of Dudjom Rinpoche, I'd really love to hear about those.

[Adamantine]

The one clear head of DT lineage is the one Dudjom Jigdrel Yeshe determined so in his letter, ie: Chatral Rinpoche. And after him the lineage head will be the current mind emanation of Dudjom Lingpa, Dudjom's grandson, that Chatral Rinpoche has solely recognized and is training in his three year retreat currently, ie: Dudjom Sangye Pema (Osel).

This is a common misconception, because as far as I know that letter was written long before Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche was grown so yes, Chatral Rinpoche was declared his regent at a certain point, and would have been had HH passed away earlier in life. ( HH planned to pass on earlier but was kept around by the many methods of his Sangyum...)
However an old letter does not change that HH later declared S.D. Rinpoche his regent, as his health deteriorated towards the end. In fact, S.D. Rinpoche very humbly always remained by his fathers side, serving him and sometimes translating for him until the very end. He never publicly taught due to prophecies until he passed a certain age. Then, at one point HH was scheduled to give a wang and to everyone's surprise including S.D.Rinpoche he simply handed the implements to his son and told him to give the wang. This was a direct way of showing that there was no difference. This all happened in Europe, so I am sure there is doubt among elder Tibetans living in Asia who became accustomed to receiving wangs and teachings from T.N.Rinpoche years before according to HH's advice. And TNR already had quite a following and had established his own centers by the time HH passed on so perhaps he saw as Dudjom Lingpa foresaw with the Dudjom tersar in relation to the Rinchen Terdzod that there was no need to include it-- likewise no need to announce Thinley Norbu in any way as he already had his own recognition and following that had it's own vast momentum. This is my own understanding which may be at fault but I have learned details slowly over many years which are often glossed over for various reasons.

[Malcolm]

The one clear head of DT lineage is the one Dudjom Jigdrel Yeshe determined so in his letter, ie: Chatral Rinpoche. And after him the lineage head will be the current mind emanation of Dudjom Lingpa, Dudjom's grandson, that Chatral Rinpoche has solely recognized and is training in his three year retreat currently, ie: Dudjom Sangye Pema (Osel).

This is a common misconception, because as far as I know that letter was written long before Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche was grown so yes, Chatral Rinpoche was declared his regent at a certain point, and would have been had HH passed away earlier in life. ( HH planned to pass on earlier but was kept around by the many methods of his Sangyum...)
However an old letter does not change that HH later declared S.D. Rinpoche his regent, as his health deteriorated towards the end. In fact, S.D. Rinpoche very humbly always remained by his fathers side, serving him and sometimes translating for him until the very end. He never publicly taught due to prophecies until he passed a certain age. Then, at one point HH was scheduled to give a wang and to everyone's surprise including S.D.Rinpoche he simply handed the implements to his son and told him to give the wang. This was a direct way of showing that there was no difference. This all happened in Europe, so I am sure there is doubt among elder Tibetans living in Asia who became accustomed to receiving wangs and teachings from T.N.Rinpoche years before according to HH's advice. And TNR already had quite a following and had established his own centers by the time HH passed on so perhaps he saw as Dudjom Lingpa foresaw with the Dudjom tersar in relation to the Rinchen Terdzod that there was no need to include it-- likewise no need to announce Thinley Norbu in any way as he already had his own recognition and following that had it's own vast momentum. This is my own understanding which may be at fault but I have learned details slowly over many years which are often glossed over for various reasons.

Shenphen Rinpoche, who is one of my important masters, is indeed the primary lineage holder of Dudjom Tersar, and the keeper of Dudjom Rinpoche's seat in North America where Dudjom Rinpoche concealed many precious teachings.

[Adamantine]

Next, Dudjom Rinpoche in a famous letter announced that his vajra regent and the person to take over the center of his mandala will be Chatral Rinpoche.

I already addressed this.

Also Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche was his father in his last life and there were certain promises Dujom had bestowed upon him going back.

Yes, that is one of the tulkus he is--

Dudjom Rinpoche's second wife helped prolong Dudjom Rnipoche's life, helped and encouraged him a lot and lots of dharma centers and activities which exist are due to her benevolant activities.

precisely.

Despite appearances in your judgmental eyes, official this and that, family relations and whatever other blurbs goes round in conceptual heads, if you ask the highest Nyingma masters in private who is the
most realized amongst the old timers they mostly respond honestly from their own realization: Chatral, Trulshik and Thinley Norbu.

All was good until this last sentence-- this is absurd. Are you actually trying to pit high Lamas against eachother based on other anonymous high lamas and say "this Lama is more realized than that one?"
This was never anything I was approaching, commenting on, and nothing I would ever dare to have an opinion on, other than to say it is absurd to be talking like this. In my view there is really no difference between the heart sons of HH Dudjom Rinpoche, and it is clear HH had the highest confidence in S.D. Rinpoche so by doubting that you are actually doubting HH Dudjom Rinpoche, -the very source of the terma itself, which is akin to doubting Guru Rinpoche himself and Yeshe Tsogyal herself since he was in a way an emanation of both together.
Now if you prefer the teaching style of one over the other or feel a karmic connection to one in particular that is another matter, but to even imply that this one is *more* realized than that is just silliness.

[Malcolm]

akin to doubting Guru Rinpoche himself and Yeshe Tsogyal herself since he was in a way an emanation of both together.

Dudjom Rinpoche's being a regent of Guru Rinpoche goes back to Rigdzin Duddul Dorje, who had a pure vision encounter in Zangdog Palri where he was predicted to be the regent of Guru Rinpoche on earth. This came after Duddul Dorje recited the seven line prayer 1 million times on the instruction of Rigzin Jatson Nyingpo.

N

[username]

Dudjom Lingpa was the mind emanation of Guru Rinpoche and Voice emanation of Yeshe Tsogyal and body emenation of Khyuchung Drogben lotsawa. In Dudjom Rinpoche's letter Chatral was named his vajra regent and mandala center and the letter was not that long before his death. Dudjom Rinpoche gave the US centers to Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche and various centers in Asia to others and all have done excellent jobs. If it wasn't for Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche's mother, Dudjom Rinpoche would not have lived as long as he did and later in his last few years too he only physically manifested due to her and a few others' wishes for our benefit. And Shenphen Dawa has done a lot for dharma in general and Dudjom Tersar in particular which many don't appreciate and he has always made Chatral Rinpoche happy too. People also don't realize how he has always quietly served H.H. the Dalai Lama too in various ways. As far as I am concerned, people can call whoever they want as Dudjom's regent or emanation or whatever, if it helps their practice. Khenpo brothers who never stopped spreading Dudjom Tersar, like Gyatrul Rinpoche and lama Tharchin on the west coast, have all done great jobs too as did Chagdud tulku and others. Everyone around Dudjom Rinpoche ended up doing great work as he predicted. He promised to take all those connected to him, even distantly, to Zangdok Palri. And of course the majority of Dudjom lineage practitioners and masters are still in India, Himalayas and Tibet who know have established the truth, despite a few westerners' fantasies amongst us. As for officially titleless simple practitiners like Chatral, Thinly Norbu and the late Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche, they never claimed anything and so there is no point in writing about them either.

[Adamantine]

As for the so-called "significant inaccuracies" in Khenpo Tsewang's biography of Dudjom Rinpoche, I'd really love to hear about those.

I have understood that there are inaccuracies concerning various details in the account of HH's imprisonment in India as well as matters concerning his last days in France-- including who was present, etc. among other things. I would have to buy a copy of the book (I borrowed it to read it) and then go over it with the people who were present and remember the details before I could give you precise corrections.. But hopefully a more comprehensive bio will become available with these details corrected in the meantime..

[Adamantine]

also in NE Khenpo Tsewang Rinpoche who was his secretary once (padmasambhava.org).

Khenpo Tsewang Rinpoche was a close representative once and did write the recently published biography of HH but there are some significant historical errors in there I have learned. And when he and his brother started their own center after HH passed on they really stopped propagating the Dudjom Tersar, and began propagating older terma lineages--mainly Tsasum Lingpa's.

Like many other lamas, however, Khenpo Tsewang also transmits many other Nyingma terma traditions - in his case, chiefly the termas of Tsasum Lingpa and Mipham Rinpoche. You must understand that since his birth Rinpoche has been steeped in the terma of Tsasum Lingpa - not only has Rinpoche's family always been tightly intertwined with Tsasum Lingpa's Gochen monastery, but Rinpoche is also a tulku of a former abbot of Gochen, Khenpo Sherab Khyentse - so he and Khenchen Palden have always been involved in propagating that lineage.

I am not arguing that they didn't occasionally offer Dudjom transmissions and I am aware that they preferred their disciples to practice the short Dudjom ngondro --probably because it's brevity makes it the most practical for busy modern folk- (it's purpose)- - however when they were serving HH Dudjom Rinpoche they were primarily transmitting the Dudjom Tersar and teaching on it and when they went off on their own they primarily began transmitting and teaching Tsasum Lingpa terma and of course some of Mipham Rinpoche terma. There is no problem with this, they are great authentic tertons and important lineages to uphold but we were merely discussing who was propagating the Dudjom Tersar. I know close old-time students of the Khenpos and took teachings from them many times myself- - they are /were great teacher/s and Lamas however if I really wanted to study the Dudjom tersar cycles as my main practice this is simply not what they have been teaching or focusing on for a very long time . . so it is not really accurate to say they have been propagating it at least in the way I define the term. In fact it is most likely that many old students of HH Dudjom RInpoche that decided to continue their dharma studies with the Khenpo Brothers ended up focusing on these other terma cycles rather than the Dudjom cycle where they began their studies. If I am wrong, please correct me, but this is certainly the impression I've received over the course of years and many conversations.

[vajraheart]

Who is propegating it ?

Garab Dorje RInpoche is the grandson of HH Dudjom RInpoche and he is usually in Asia, he leads retreats and gives wangs in Malaysia and Bhutan quite often and he comes to India as well-- usually leading a Troma retreat every year in Bodh Gaya. Receiving the Tersar from any of the immediate family of HH would certainly be ideal. Garab Dorje is the main person touring around and propagating the Dudjom tersar lineage widely in a public way in Asia. There are many that hold the lineage though, I am sure Trulshik Rinpoche does, but I will ask and find out more if you need.

Thanks, Garab Dorje i was aware of , but I would not receive it from him. Trulshik Rinpoche would excellent. My own teacher returns to Tso Pema shortly.I'll clarify things with him at that time. Asides from searching for possible candidates to receive it from, I was also checking out the lineage in general it terms of current masters who focus on it as their lineage. If you could ask about Trulshik Rinpoche, it would be helpful. I can do the same out here, but it looks like you may have an easier/faster time.
take care

[Adamantine]

Who is propegating it ?

Garab Dorje RInpoche is the grandson of HH Dudjom RInpoche and he is usually in Asia, he leads retreats and gives wangs in Malaysia and Bhutan quite often and he comes to India as well-- usually leading a Troma retreat every year in Bodh Gaya. Receiving the Tersar from any of the immediate family of HH would certainly be ideal. Garab Dorje is the main person touring around and propagating the Dudjom tersar lineage widely in a public way in Asia. There are many that hold the lineage though, I am sure Trulshik Rinpoche does, but I will ask and find out more if you need.

Thanks, Garab Dorje i was aware of , but I would not receive it from him. Trulshik Rinpoche would excellent. My own teacher returns to Tso Pema shortly.I'll clarify things with him at that time. Asides from searching for possible candidates to receive it from, I was also checking out the lineage in general it terms of current masters who focus on it as their lineage. If you could ask about Trulshik Rinpoche, it would be helpful. I can do the same out here, but it looks like you may have an easier/faster time.
take care

I meant I will ask/find out more Lamas that can give the wangs/transmissions in India / Nepal / Bhutan. Not that I would ask about Trulshik Rinpoche-- it is certain that he carries these. He is very old and very busy though, so it may be hard to make a specific request, --if he is offering the wangs already though that is another matter. You recently missed Thinley Norbu Rinpoche in Pharping Nepal giving the entire Dudjom cycle. Within this year hopefully the Tibetan Dudjom Yangsi will return from his three-year retreat from Tibet and then possibly offer wangs once again. He would be another ideal. I have no idea why you would not receive from Garab Dorje Rinpoche?

[vajraheart]

I meant I will ask/find out more Lamas that can give the wangs/transmissions in India / Nepal / Bhutan. Not that I would ask about Trulshik Rinpoche-- it is certain that he carries these. He is very old and very busy though, so it may be hard to make a specific request, --if he is offering the wangs already though that is another matter. You recently missed Thinley Norbu Rinpoche in Pharping Nepal giving the entire Dudjom cycle. Within this year hopefully the Tibetan Dudjom Yangsi will return from his three-year retreat from Tibet and then possibly offer wangs once again. He would be another ideal. I have no idea why you would not receive from Garab Dorje Rinpoche?

I see , thank you . Who I decide to take it from is a personal decision, I have nothing against Garab Dorje per se, just not interested in having him as a Tsawai Lama. I understand that it would be nearly impossible to get it from Trulshik Rinpoche, let alone any lengthy time with him. If you could look into whos giving it out here, that would great, thank you.