bde stong ye-shes

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

We know in Tantra and Mahamudra the idiom, bde stong ye-shes / Detong yeshe.

Moreover, Tantra speaks of Detong Yeshe, the unification of 2 things, bliss and emptiness, whereas Dzogchen has been non-dual from the very beginning.

In Tantra we have the knowledge of the unification of bliss and emptiness (bde stong ye-shes).

In Mahamudra, which also represents the culmination of the Tantra system, there is also the unification of bliss and emptiness (bdestong zung-'jug) and this results in the experience of Detong Yeshe.
Also karma mudra does result in Detong Yeshe.

So i guess there must be a difference between Dzogchen and Mahamudra on a certain level.

I know when i did follow here the proponents that Dzogchen = Mahamudra, that there would be no unification of bliss and emptiness ((bdestong zung-'jug) which does result in Detong Yeshe.

Question:

- Where does exact start then inside the practice of Mahamudra ( Chaggya Chenpo) this non- blissfull state ? When based upon Tantra?
- When not based on Tantra where does this non-blissfull state start?
- In case of non-blissfull State inside Mahamudra, can one call this then anyway still Mahamudra?
- In case of Trekchod = Mahamudra, why is there no Thodgal practice inside Mahamudra?
- Chag gya Chenmo would mean also Mahamudra ?

Mutsog Marro
KY

[conebeckham]

I'm not sure of the exact answers to all your questions, Kalden Yungdrung, in fact I find them a bit confusing, but I think it's a mistake to talk about Bliss/Emptiness or DeTong Yeshe in Tantra and Mahamudra as a "dualism" or "unification of two things."

This is "Lhenchik," or spontaneously co-emergent, in actuality. Breaking this into two components is merely a pedagogical device, I think. It's perhaps worth noting that "bliss" as a word can signify different experiences. That "Bliss" which is spontaneously co-emergent with Emptiness, and which is a "wisdom," DeTong Yeshe, is not the kind of bliss which can increase or decrease, for example.

In the Kagyu systems, at least, whether one follows the Path of Means (=the path of the two stages), or the Path of Liberation(= Mahamudra Path), or a combination of the two, as is usually the case, one likely has trained previously in understanding, to some degree, "Emptiness" from the POV of conceptual analysis and philosophy. "Bliss" is really an area of focus in the Path of Means, though there is discussion of "bliss" in many Mahamudra manuals, as well.

Chag Gya Chen Mo (or "Po," ) means "Mahamudra, " I believe, but merely with a feminine particle, I 've not seen it used that way, though. Can you cite any examples where have you seen "Chag Gya Chen Mo" used?

[Jinzang]

Speaking very generally, bliss arises through the practice of shamata and then with insight one sees that the bliss is empty. Because this realization of emptiness does not negate the appearance of bliss, one has the unity of the two. Bliss can be developed easier and deeper through the practices of tantra, so it is the superior path for persons with or close to an understanding of emptiness.

[kalden yungdrung]

Tashi delek,

Thanks for your reply.

Will make some sugestions between the lines.

Mutsog marro
KY

I'm not sure of the exact answers to all your questions, Kalden Yungdrung, in fact I find them a bit confusing, but I think it's a mistake to talk about Bliss/Emptiness or DeTong Yeshe in Tantra and Mahamudra as a "dualism" or "unification of two things."

Me was told and teached that De tong Yeshe would be based on a dualistic principle of Bliss like based in karma mudra yab and yum and the resultant bliss.


This is "Lhenchik," or spontaneously co-emergent, in actuality. Breaking this into two components is merely a pedagogical device, I think. It's perhaps worth noting that "bliss" as a word can signify different experiences. That "Bliss" which is spontaneously co-emergent with Emptiness, and which is a "wisdom," DeTong Yeshe, is not the kind of bliss which can increase or decrease, for example.

So bliss is here co-emergent and is based on dualistic principles, if i did understood the Mahamudra teachings well.


In the Kagyu systems, at least, whether one follows the Path of Means (=the path of the two stages), or the Path of Liberation(= Mahamudra Path), or a combination of the two, as is usually the case, one likely has trained previously in understanding, to some degree, "Emptiness" from the POV of conceptual analysis and philosophy. "Bliss" is really an area of focus in the Path of Means, though there is discussion of "bliss" in many Mahamudra manuals, as well.

So if bliss should be experienced in Dzogchen then in Dzogchen bliss is realy self emanating, because there is no object and subject. Thought that in Mahamudra the bliss is produced by object and subject and that would here the difference. Further that this Tong Cha is inseparable connected with the lights is sure, but not at all mentioned inside the whole Mahamudra system. The latter difference was the point that i could not develop myself in the Mahamudra Tradition, and so i did changed the lineage for the Bon Tradition where the Lights (of the Bardo) are discussed and practized. So at the moment i make a real speedy emancipation, which was in my previous Tibetan Tradition impossible..................Therefore Mahamudra is for me the same as the practice of Trekchod, because i recognize this as the same. But nevertheless the lights are there inseparable connected to the Trekchod / Mahamudra , State, but in Mahamudra are these Lights not connected to the State of Mahamudra and that makes the Mahamudra system in my opinion not an optimal system. But i can agree that some are happy with their Mahamudra / Trekchod practice, but i was not in those days............


Chag Gya Chen Mo (or "Po," ) means "Mahamudra, " I believe, but merely with a feminine particle, I 've not seen it used that way, though. Can you cite any examples where have you seen "Chag Gya Chen Mo" used?

Chag Gya Chen Mo did i once read many years ago when i was practizing Mahamudra inside the book of (Takpo) Tashi Namgyal's quintensence of Mahamudra.

[Yontan]

There can be a new experience of bde and stong as a unity, but there has never been a separation.
How would you join them?

[kalden yungdrung]

There can be a new experience of bde and stong as a unity, but there has never been a separation.
How would you join them?

Tashi delek,

Bde stong Yeshe does mean here a (inter) dependent case, namely that the bliss was caused by the intervention of an object.
There would be here spoken of bliss caused by for instance like the yab-yum / karma mudra can cause.

Sure we know in Dzogchen the States without duality where there is also something like bliss, but then without an object and subject.
There is separation from the Natural State if one does dwell in the subject - object state and also the caused bliss is then of a dualistic quality.

We (Dzogchenpas) also do not pay attention on bliss when abiding in the Natural Sate, because then we would experiencing it all, with the mind of karma.

So it is realy difficult to do "meditation", without subject and object.

Mutsog Marro
KY