conebeckham wrote:I'm not sure of the exact answers to all your questions, Kalden Yungdrung, in fact I find them a bit confusing, but I think it's a mistake to talk about Bliss/Emptiness or DeTong Yeshe in Tantra and Mahamudra as a "dualism" or "unification of two things."
Me was told and teached that De tong Yeshe would be based on a dualistic principle of Bliss like based in karma mudra yab and yum and the resultant bliss.
This is "Lhenchik," or spontaneously co-emergent, in actuality. Breaking this into two components is merely a pedagogical device, I think. It's perhaps worth noting that "bliss" as a word can signify different experiences. That "Bliss" which is spontaneously co-emergent with Emptiness, and which is a "wisdom," DeTong Yeshe, is not the kind of bliss which can increase or decrease, for example.
So bliss is here co-emergent and is based on dualistic principles, if i did understood the Mahamudra teachings well.
In the Kagyu systems, at least, whether one follows the Path of Means (=the path of the two stages), or the Path of Liberation(= Mahamudra Path), or a combination of the two, as is usually the case, one likely has trained previously in understanding, to some degree, "Emptiness" from the POV of conceptual analysis and philosophy. "Bliss" is really an area of focus in the Path of Means, though there is discussion of "bliss" in many Mahamudra manuals, as well.
So if bliss should be experienced in Dzogchen then in Dzogchen bliss is realy self emanating, because there is no object and subject. Thought that in Mahamudra the bliss is produced by object and subject and that would here the difference. Further that this Tong Cha is inseparable connected with the lights is sure, but not at all mentioned inside the whole Mahamudra system. The latter difference was the point that i could not develop myself in the Mahamudra Tradition, and so i did changed the lineage for the Bon Tradition where the Lights (of the Bardo) are discussed and practized. So at the moment i make a real speedy emancipation, which was in my previous Tibetan Tradition impossible..................Therefore Mahamudra is for me the same as the practice of Trekchod, because i recognize this as the same. But nevertheless the lights are there inseparable connected to the Trekchod / Mahamudra , State, but in Mahamudra are these Lights not connected to the State of Mahamudra and that makes the Mahamudra system in my opinion not an optimal system. But i can agree that some are happy with their Mahamudra / Trekchod practice, but i was not in those days............
Chag Gya Chen Mo (or "Po," ) means "Mahamudra, " I believe, but merely with a feminine particle, I 've not seen it used that way, though. Can you cite any examples where have you seen "Chag Gya Chen Mo" used?
Yontan wrote:There can be a new experience of bde and stong as a unity, but there has never been a separation.
How would you join them?