Hua Tou and Dzogchen

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Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Fa Dao » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:17 pm

For those who have had experience in both Chan and Dzogchen:
When one shatters the "Great Doubt" as in Hua Tou practice from the Chan lineage how would the resultant state be viewed according to Dzogchen?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby kalden yungdrung » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:47 pm

Fa Dao wrote:For those who have had experience in both Chan and Dzogchen:
When one shatters the "Great Doubt" as in Hua Tou practice from the Chan lineage how would the resultant state be viewed according to Dzogchen?



Tashi delek,

If shatters does mean here to cut the great doubt, then this state could be the state of Trekchod.
Here one does abide in non-duality that is the cut with duality.

But i am not sure which doubt is cutten here in Chan"an Buddhism.
Maybe explain this first (shattering the Great Doubt according the point of view in Zen) to the non-Zen people. Then we can start with comparisons etc.

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Last edited by kalden yungdrung on Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:49 pm

Fa Dao wrote:For those who have had experience in both Chan and Dzogchen:
When one shatters the "Great Doubt" as in Hua Tou practice from the Chan lineage how would the resultant state be viewed according to Dzogchen?


What does shattering great doubt mean?

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Fa Dao » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:49 pm

In the hua tou method one is given a meditation topic/question. For example, "Who is dragging this corpse around?" or "Who is chanting Buddhas name?" You are instructed to continually ask this question until one pointedness is achieved. Great doubt is developed from asking a question that does not have an answer that the logical/rational/thinking mind can answer. One keeps pushing and pushing to come up with an answer nonetheless. Eventually one breaks through and the separateness of mind, body and world drops away leaving one with a deep understanding of shunyata.
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:00 pm

Fa Dao wrote:In the hua tou method one is given a meditation topic/question. For example, "Who is dragging this corpse around?" or "Who is chanting Buddhas name?" You are instructed to continually ask this question until one pointedness is achieved. Great doubt is developed from asking a question that does not have an answer that the logical/rational/thinking mind can answer. One keeps pushing and pushing to come up with an answer nonetheless. Eventually one breaks through and the separateness of mind, body and world drops away leaving one with a deep understanding of shunyata.


Tregcho is based on recognizing the nature of mind directly, and staying in that state.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Fa Dao » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:31 pm

From my limited understanding of chan realizing the nature of mind is realizing emtiness. So then in your estimation you would say it is similar to Tragcho?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:34 pm

Fa Dao wrote:From my limited understanding of chan realizing the nature of mind is realizing emtiness. So then in your estimation you would say it is similar to Tragcho?



The nature of the mind is not just emptiness, it is clarity and emptiness inseparable. The emphasis in tregchö is on this.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Inge » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:49 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:From my limited understanding of chan realizing the nature of mind is realizing emtiness. So then in your estimation you would say it is similar to Tragcho?



The nature of the mind is not just emptiness, it is clarity and emptiness inseparable. The emphasis in tregchö is on this.


This reminds me of a quote attributed to Hsuan Hua:

"If you understand the Zero, you know it to be the True Emptiness, which contains Wonderful Existence, and the Wonderful Existence, which contains True Emptiness. True Emptiness does not obstruct Wonderful Existence and Wonderful Existence does not obstruct True Emptiness. True Emptiness is not empty and so it is called Wonderful Existence; Wonderful Existence is non-existent and is therefore called True Emptiness--empty and non-empty, existing and not existing."

Are you talking about the same thing?
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:56 pm

Inge wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:From my limited understanding of chan realizing the nature of mind is realizing emtiness. So then in your estimation you would say it is similar to Tragcho?



The nature of the mind is not just emptiness, it is clarity and emptiness inseparable. The emphasis in tregchö is on this.


This reminds me of a quote attributed to Hsuan Hua:

"If you understand the Zero, you know it to be the True Emptiness, which contains Wonderful Existence, and the Wonderful Existence, which contains True Emptiness. True Emptiness does not obstruct Wonderful Existence and Wonderful Existence does not obstruct True Emptiness. True Emptiness is not empty and so it is called Wonderful Existence; Wonderful Existence is non-existent and is therefore called True Emptiness--empty and non-empty, existing and not existing."

Are you talking about the same thing?


This is referring to appearance and emptiness, object side.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Inge » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:02 am

Namdrol wrote:
This is referring to appearance and emptiness, object side.

N

I see. Could you explain a little what is meant by clarity?
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:12 am

Inge wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
This is referring to appearance and emptiness, object side.

N

I see. Could you explain a little what is meant by clarity?



"Clarity" means the fundamental aspect of the mind that illuminates objects for the mind separate from the content of the mind. That clarity is very difficult to discover.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Inge » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:21 am

Namdrol wrote:
Inge wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
This is referring to appearance and emptiness, object side.

N

I see. Could you explain a little what is meant by clarity?



"Clarity" means the fundamental aspect of the mind that illuminates objects for the mind separate from the content of the mind. That clarity is very difficult to discover.


How does it illuminate objects? Are there any synonymous words for this, as I find that hard to understand. Does the clarity illuminate objects in order for the mind to be able to see those objects?

And what does it mean to discover this clarity? Can this clarity be seen, or is it experienced like some kind of state, or something else entirely?
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:23 am

Inge wrote:
And what does it mean to discover this clarity? Can this clarity be seen, or is it experienced like some kind of state, or something else entirely?


Clarity is the cognitive aspect of the mind that knows objects. So in sense, what one is trying to see is the knowing knower itself, apart from what it knows.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Inge » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:31 am

Namdrol wrote:
Inge wrote:
And what does it mean to discover this clarity? Can this clarity be seen, or is it experienced like some kind of state, or something else entirely?


Clarity is the cognitive aspect of the mind that knows objects. So in sense, what one is trying to see is the knowing knower itself, apart from what it knows.


Ok, that is more easy to understand. To see the knowing knower itself, is this the same as knowing the knower? Or seeing the seer, experiencing the experiencor, being aware of awareness ...?
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Jinzang » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:37 am

Realization is realization, no matter how you get it. There are various descriptions of levels and stages of realization, but it's difficult to know what level someone has reached. They may just be expressing themselves poorly.
Lamrim, lojong, and mahamudra are the unmistaken path.
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:46 am

Inge wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Inge wrote:
And what does it mean to discover this clarity? Can this clarity be seen, or is it experienced like some kind of state, or something else entirely?


Clarity is the cognitive aspect of the mind that knows objects. So in sense, what one is trying to see is the knowing knower itself, apart from what it knows.


Ok, that is more easy to understand. To see the knowing knower itself, is this the same as knowing the knower? Or seeing the seer, experiencing the experiencor, being aware of awareness ...?


The difficulty is that a knower is conditioned. This clarity is unconditoned.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Fa Dao » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:48 am

Is it even possible to have an experience of emptiness without clarity? and if so, how?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Inge » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:53 am

Namdrol wrote:The difficulty is that a knower is conditioned. This clarity is unconditoned.


In what way is a knower conditioned?
Does conditioned mean that it depends on something? I only know the term "condition" as in causes and condition, but I'm not certain about the distinction between the two.

Must the cognitive aspect recognize itself?
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby ngodrup » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:09 am

The thing to appreciate, it seems to my mind, is that recognition
according to trekchod would be essentially equivalent to the seeing
of an Arya Being on the Path of Seeing or a first bhumi Bodhisattva.
I very much doubt that all these facile comparisons of Dzogchen to
Chan or Zen bear much resemblance to the actual seeing of an Arya.
... but I may be mistaken. ;)
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Re: Hua Tou and Dzogchen

Postby Inge » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:15 am

ngodrup wrote:The thing to appreciate, it seems to my mind, is that recognition
according to trekchod would be essentially equivalent to the seeing
of an Arya Being on the Path of Seeing or a first bhumi Bodhisattva.
I very much doubt that all these facile comparisons of Dzogchen to
Chan or Zen bear much resemblance to the actual seeing of an Arya.
... but I may be mistaken. ;)


:offtopic: Regarding first bhumi Bodhisattvas, I was once told that Nagarjuna was one of those. Does anybody know if that is correct?
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