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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:07 am 
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I remember reading that recognizing rigpa is not the same as realizing emptiness.

What's the diff?


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:06 am 
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the light ...

Sönam

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 5:44 am 
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Do you mean rigpa is simply the realization of the union of luminosity and emptiness?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2011 6:01 am 
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Enochian sent me the wiki link, here's the explanation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzogchen#R ... inbow_Body

[47]
Rigpa and Rainbow Body

Rigpa has three wisdoms, two of which are kadag and lhun grub. Kadag (primordial purity) is the Dzogchen view of emptiness. Lhun grub (natural formation) is the Dzogchen view of dependent origination. Throughout Mahayana, emptiness and dependent origination are two sides of the same coin. Kadag deals with tregchöd. The lhun grub aspect has to do with esoteric practices, such as (but not limited to) Thödgal, that self-liberate the dependently originated human body into the Sambhogakāya (rainbow body phenomenon).[48] The symbol of Dzogchen is a Tibetan A wrapped in a thigle (see picture to the right). The A represents kadag while the thigle represents lhun grub. The third wisdom, thugs rje (compassion), is the inseparability of the previous two wisdoms.

In Dzogchen, the fundamental point of the natural state is to distinguish rigpa from sems (mind). The distinguishing of rigpa and sems from each other is emphasized by Jigme Lingpa and goes back to the seventeen tantras.[49]
Tibetan letter "A" inside a thigle. The A represents kadag while the thigle represents lhun grub.

The ultimate fruition of the thodgal practices is a body of pure light, called a rainbow body (Wylie 'ja' lus, pronounced Jalü.)[50] If the four visions of thogal are not completed before death, then at death, from the point of view of an external observer, the following happens: the corpse does not start to decompose, but starts to shrink until it disappears. Usually fingernails, toenails and hair are left behind[51] (see e.g. Togden Urgyen Tendzin, Ayu Khandro, Changchub Dorje.) The attainment of the rainbow body is typically accompanied by the appearance of lights and rainbows.[50]

Some exceptional practitioners such as Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra are held to have realized a higher type of rainbow body without dying. Having completed the four visions before death, the individual focuses on the lights that surround the fingers. His or her physical body self-liberates into a nonmaterial body of light (a Sambhogakāya) with the ability to exist and abide wherever and whenever as pointed by one's compassion. [52]




So I take it that that this is an accurate depication of rigpa? That is the wisdom of the inseperability of emptiness and dependent arising?

Thanks enochian.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:18 am 
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Sorry a noob question (if this has been discussed before please point out).

If Dzogchen does not admit the two truths, how does it explain dependent arising?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:10 am 
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xabir wrote:
Sorry a noob question (if this has been discussed before please point out).

If Dzogchen does not admit the two truths, how does it explain dependent arising?


Relative truth is not true.

But even Nāgārjuna rejects the two truths:

"Since the Jina proclaims that nirvana alone is true,
what wise person would not reject the rest as false?"

N

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:07 pm 
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Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:16 pm 
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How does the recognition/practice of ripga match with the 5 paths model of liberation? Does it?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 1:29 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
xabir wrote:
Sorry a noob question (if this has been discussed before please point out).

If Dzogchen does not admit the two truths, how does it explain dependent arising?


Relative truth is not true.

But even Nāgārjuna rejects the two truths:

"Since the Jina proclaims that nirvana alone is true,
what wise person would not reject the rest as false?"

N


On the ultimate level all events in samsara and nirvana never come into being, and so have no separate existence. On the relative plane they are illusory figments of mind, so again they have no separate existence. They are unoriginated events appearing in a plethora of magical illusion, which is like the reflection of the moon in water, possessing an inherent acausal dynamic. Since this essentially insubstantial magical illusion also never comes into being, ultimate and relative are identical and their identity is the one cause. Thus intuitive realization of [total presence] arises [with attainment of the unity of the two truths].
- Padmasambhava - Man ngag lta ba'i phreng ba -

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By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:16 pm 
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rigpa is emptiness. there is no emptiness.

its not understanding emptiness, its seeing it. seeing that which is not. manifested in all things and yet, not a thing. there is a seeing, but not an understanding. it is beyond understanding. one can only say empty.

best wishes, Tom.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:21 am 
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Is there any talks of the three natures in dzogchen?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:25 am 
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xabir wrote:
Sorry a noob question (if this has been discussed before please point out).

If Dzogchen does not admit the two truths, how does it explain dependent arising?


The first link of the twelve links of dependent arising is ignorance, whatever arise from ignorance is neither existent nor is it a truth.

/magnus

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