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Women can't become Buddhas? - Page 9 - Dhamma Wheel

Women can't become Buddhas?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Dhammanando
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Re: No record of Women Buddhas

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:56 am


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:04 am

also i think it needs to be pointed out that men cant be a buddha, A man can. its not like men get to line up and the best one is chosen, no the majority of beings period can never do this, we might as well be upset that tigers or gods, or trees cant be a buddha. one dude, some super rare guy, who has to go through eons of perfecting himself can do this. and then what does he get for it? not much more than you and i can get for a life time of working hard to reach the same state. sure he gets millions of statues in his honor, but so does mickey mouse... the buddha may be the greatest guy ever, but being a buddha probably isnt the thing most of us really want to be. i mean those great disciples in the suttas if they thought it was such a great thing to do could have may those vows to shakyamuni, but you dont see them doing it, and i dont think it's a matter of ananda, or mahakasyapa or Sāriputta where selfish or lazy.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: No record of Women Buddhas

Postby Dhammakid » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:17 am

Last edited by Dhammakid on Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

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Re: No record of Women Buddhas

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:28 am

- Peter


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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:38 am

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Re: No record of Women Buddhas

Postby Dhammakid » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:38 am

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Dhammakid » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:43 am

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:46 am

Sometimes the world really is like a mirror, with the inner workings reflecting onto the outer phenomena.

Respectfully,
Drolma


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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:48 am


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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Ngawang Drolma. » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:01 am

Thank you :namaste:


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Jechbi
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Jechbi » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:01 am

Catching up on this thread and wondering: If there was some sutta somewhere stating that only a person with brown eyes could become a samma-sam-buddha, would we be rushing in to argue that people with blue eyes ought not be excluded from consideration as possible samma-sam-buddhas? (No sarcasm intended.)

I realize that gender equity is a significant and important social challenge, but we're talking about a samma-sam-buddha. This is a one-in-a-zillion attainment. We're not talking about whether men or women are more capable, more fabulous, more enlightenment-prone or whatever. All we're talking about is one attribute of a samma-sam-buddha, and an attribute that, as far as I can tell, isn't even going to matter. Let's say a woman could become a samma-sam-buddha, so then what? Would that somehow be a better samma-sam-buddha? Or would samsara somehow be better if throughout the eons the gender distribution of samma-sam-buddhas was equal? I've completely lost track of why this is important.

Reminds me of .

:shrug:

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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Dhammakid » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:02 am

I feel I need to explain my real issue here.

Since I joined this board, I haven't seen anyone take the suttas at face value the way they are being taken here. We have discussed, debated, picked apart and put back together countless topics. Everyone has offered invaluable insight, especially Bhante and Will, who I have always appreciated since my days at ES. But for some reason, I'm getting the vibe that in-depth discussion on the status of females in Sammasambuddha-hood is being nixed. I am being told to downplay it because it has no pertinence to my everyday practice. But neither does a lot of stuff we talk about on here. And those discussions are never discouraged.

If the belief pertains to skillfulness and social structure, then obviously that's understandable. But if the belief is absolute, meaning no matter the social structure or age or whatever, a woman still cannot become a Sammasambuddha, even if they posses every single other perfection...no one has offered an explanation of why. Basically what we're all saying is "that's the way it is, just don't worry about it". Everything else I have studied in Buddhism - literally, everything else - has a good reason to be taken as true. If it didn't, I wouldn't be Buddhist. But there is nothing said so far to support the absolute interpretation that has been offered here.

Forgive me if I'm being just a tad bit picky. But I expect the standards of the board to be upheld in every discussion, not just the discussions that are convenient and light. All of a sudden, we get to a discussion of a fundamental Buddhist idea, and some of the most knowledgeable members here fold?

Sure, I'm a beginner and I'm inexperienced. Maybe that's why I'm speaking this way. But when I am experienced along this Path, women still won't be able to attain Sammasambuddha-hood. I can't wait to see how I will react then.

:namaste:
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Re: No record of Women Buddhas

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:04 am


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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Dhammakid » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:22 am

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Re: No record of Women Buddhas

Postby Dhammakid » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:31 am

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Will
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Re: the attached cannot be enlightened

Postby Will » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:58 am

Consider looking at this subject a little differently. There are so many skillful & unskillful actions. The former group lead toward virtue; the latter toward vice. We also have dozens of innate tendencies & qualities of mind & feeling. Sex is just one factor among all these others.

One cannot become a buddha with hatred toward beings dominating one. One cannot become a buddha with attachment to beautiful sunsets. The list is long.

So why this kerfuffle over sex? Is it because we are powerfully identified with not only ego, but our ego's sex? Yes indeed. There is also a strong era bonding, if I may call it such. During this "progressive" time everything that is better must be identified with, because I live now and here.

Place bonding, era bonding, sex bonding, ego bonding are major obstacles to any form of bodhi, never mind buddhahood.

In addition we are not always born males, nor always females.

Equanimity toward this subject would be beneficial.
Last edited by Will on Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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Dhammakid
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Re: the attached cannot be enlightened

Postby Dhammakid » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:06 am

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Jechbi
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby Jechbi » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:07 am


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Women can't be enlightened?

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:38 am

one thing i always disagreed with my fellow anarchists on was utopia. i dont think it's possible. now i believe to strive for it is probably one of the highest goals one can have and that we should always strive to make a perfect world. but the reality is it will never happen.

maybe samsara sucks? maybe the world will never be this place where men dont dominate over women? that could be why women can never be a buddha...
it keeps being asked "well if we lived in a society where...." but we dont, and maybe we never will? :shrug:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat


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