the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
nowheat
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby nowheat » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:35 pm


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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:44 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

nowheat
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby nowheat » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:46 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:53 pm


nowheat
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby nowheat » Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:56 pm


seanpdx
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby seanpdx » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:00 am


nowheat
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby nowheat » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:03 am


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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby seanpdx » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:11 am


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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:16 am

Hi NoWheat,

Great points! From my point of view, yes, the person with mundane right view still has taints (asavas) because they have not been eliminated yet... Since a belief in rebirth is, of course, some sort of fixed view, it's something that would have to be let go of eventually, but it's not clear to me that it's that belief that is the [b]major[/b] reason for continued rebirth.
I would have thought that there were lots of much worse wrongheaded views that have be let go of for awakening.

Mike

PS, if you want to link to a particular post, go to the thread and click on the heading of the post you want to quote. You can then cut and paste the address.

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mikenz66
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:20 am


seanpdx
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby seanpdx » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:24 am


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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:24 am

Greetings Mike,

Tying what you said just then to nowheat back to your earlier comments... that you have Right View with Taints, means you are not an eternalist, nor are you an annihilationist... nor you do possess any of the 62 wrong views detailed in the Brahmajala Sutta.

The tendency (anusaya) to think in terms of self is a different matter altogether, and is only completely eradicated upon attaining arahanthood.

Therefore, to repose Sean's question against that setting once more, "Does belief in rebirth then remain a necessary belief if you hold no wrong views with respect to atman?". Feel free to answer as you see fit.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:35 am


seanpdx
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby seanpdx » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:41 am


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mikenz66
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:43 am


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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby seanpdx » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:47 am


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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:56 am


nowheat
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby nowheat » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:22 am


nowheat
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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby nowheat » Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:46 am


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Re: the Dhamma without rebirth: amoral and what else?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:21 am

Another argument, apart from viz "punishment", is this:

Those with the belief in rebirth may be inclined to give full effort to the path.
Evidence: How many bhikkhus do not accept this teaching?
Extremely few.
Suggesting that without this view, one may be inclined to hold back from 100% commitment.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .


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