Economics..yes,,they are this dim

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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:18 am

adinatha wrote:Basically our situation is do dharma or go mad. I was talking to a retired university professor who owns a house in San Francisco, Paris and the Virgin Islands, very big houses. He taught sociology. I was like, "make money not love?" Full-blown communism if not just socialism will have to be revisted. Marx predicted that communism would be preceded by a sort of technological apex of the capitalist regime. So then, previous communist regimes were premature. If you believe the futurists, they predict a techno apex this century, "the singularity." If what they are saying is so, the future will be beyond anything we can imagine now.


You might be interested in these guys.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

I'm currently in anarchism mode so I don't really agree with the approach but they seem like a good bunch nonetheless.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:06 am

Huseng wrote:
adinatha wrote:Yeah people think its like the sun going supernova. It will definitely happen, but not in our lifetimes. People are gambling that economic collapse will not happen in our lifetimes or even in their grandchildren's lifetimes, that the powers that be will fend it off and that tech progress will catch up and save us. It is not an unreasonable sort of optimism, because exactly when shit meets fan is unpredictable. Anyway, we dharma people know that it will meet fan this or next life, so we make provisions now.


I'm gambling it happens within the next ten to twenty years. Economic collapse is one thing, but environmental catastrophes will be far worse, and all of this will be fuel for endless wars. I don't think it'll be the end of the world, but human life expectancy will certainly decrease as it is predicted in scriptures both Buddhist and Hindu.

On the bright side, all these horrible experiences will foster great compassion and be an opportunity for serious on-the-ground bodhisattva training.


Nothing like tying a tourniquet to practice compassion-emptiness.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby tummo » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:08 am

adinatha wrote:
tummo wrote:why is this topic on this forum?


Ron said because he feels the economic situation is harmful for people and something we as buddhists should understand and respond compassionately.


C'mon, economy and other situations are empty in nature. there is no spoon, everything is in your mind. Even if it crashes tomorrow and no jobs, it will be a good opportunity to go into a 10 year retreat and meditate like Milarepa. So crashes and crises are good - they present an excellent opportunity to practice :smile:
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:25 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
adinatha wrote:Basically our situation is do dharma or go mad. I was talking to a retired university professor who owns a house in San Francisco, Paris and the Virgin Islands, very big houses. He taught sociology. I was like, "make money not love?" Full-blown communism if not just socialism will have to be revisted. Marx predicted that communism would be preceded by a sort of technological apex of the capitalist regime. So then, previous communist regimes were premature. If you believe the futurists, they predict a techno apex this century, "the singularity." If what they are saying is so, the future will be beyond anything we can imagine now.


You might be interested in these guys.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

I'm currently in anarchism mode so I don't really agree with the approach but they seem like a good bunch nonetheless.


Yeah I've looked at that before. Really cool.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:27 am

tummo wrote:
adinatha wrote:
tummo wrote:why is this topic on this forum?


Ron said because he feels the economic situation is harmful for people and something we as buddhists should understand and respond compassionately.


C'mon, economy and other situations are empty in nature. there is no spoon, everything is in your mind. Even if it crashes tomorrow and no jobs, it will be a good opportunity to go into a 10 year retreat and meditate like Milarepa. So crashes and crises are good - they present an excellent opportunity to practice :smile:


It's not that easy. Even Mila needed food. You think Americans are going to stop by your house and drop off food? That's a laugh.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby tummo » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:35 am

It's not that easy. Even Mila needed food. You think Americans are going to stop by your house and drop off food? That's a laugh.


Basic agriculture will always survive (there are studies done by economists showing that people will survive if they make Zero money)

Nettle root rocks!

Anyway, your reality is whatever you want it to be. Easy or difficult depends entirely on how your mind looks at it.
So in my view there is no dim economics.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it,
unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:33 pm

adinatha wrote:Full-blown communism if not just socialism will have to be revisted. Marx predicted that communism would be preceded by a sort of technological apex of the capitalist regime. So then, previous communist regimes were premature. If you believe the futurists, they predict a techno apex this century, "the singularity." If what they are saying is so, the future will be beyond anything we can imagine now.


Marx thought capitalism was progressive, and you are correct, in his view, advanced capitialism was required before a successful socialism, etc.

What he did not understand was peak oil.

Same with the futurists. It used to be the case that we got a 300:1 return on energy invested in oil recovery. Now we are down to 10:1.

People who live in cities, who depend on the petro-driven civilization, are in for it. People who live in the country, who can grow food, will have more resiliance.

N
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:35 pm

adinatha wrote:Yeah I've looked at that before. Really cool.


Their designs are energy expensive -- only possible 50 years ago.

We are heading back to a wood-based economy. The only problem with that is that we do not have good forest managment skills.

We have enough coal for the next three hundred years or so, but that is not fantastic.

N
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:49 pm

Sustainability in this day and age...growing your own food that type of thing....there are just to many of us.
This area where I live for instance in native american times and even first european settler times maybe it sustained about 20 to 30 thousand in the entire area....now 1 million is my guess..

Getting back to a sustainable level in this present time means subtracting 970 thousand peoples..just not enough food and water, with no drought and no global warming effect .
And those that think....well I'm OK I have my land my well....you may be.....970 thousand will be looking to get what you have...the rational.....it is food for my children....as they kill you they will say that thing....it is bad what I do but it is for my children you must die and I take your food.
It will be considered even a nobel endeavor.

If you look at the sustainability level where you live in the US it is the level populations were at prior to the european invasion.
Beyond that its kill or be killed to many just to many people.
No dharma is practiced in such a environment...if things get that bad.
Other areas hard to tell what is sustainability but I'd guess by our example 1 e thousandths of what you have where you live.

Asia will come through this economic thing.... so I don't personally fear right now wholescale death and destruction. Later on global warming and its consequence...asia is in the crosshairs,

This is not good for dharma any way you cut it

Right now...QE3 will be discussed at the next fed meeting next week. They I'm sure intended to wait until the summer before the elections with that thing to artificially boost the market and drive money from bonds into stocks but....500 point down day will force their hand by my take.
They will talk about it at the next fed meeting and then implement it a bit in small fashion between then and the election...I'd guess starting next month...
So the markets will rebound on that thing.

Structually with the right wing cuts and tax cuts... smaller government the economy, the consumer is screwed. Lower gas prices though.
The talking heads are falling over themselves today trying to avoid the issue that the debt ceiling right wing win had anything to do with the present down dow as that is the ideology they must defend....

it was absolutely that and since no FDR willing to take on corporate interests is on the horizon.....long term things look dim..Smaller american government spells lesser jobs.
Imagine if they really when they had the opportunity early in 09 spent money on real things like jobs building things we can use like bridges water systems perhaps alternative energy...mostly it was just wasted.

So the market will rise again due to QE3. The economy...america.... until they do away with this aversion to government and big federal government in particular which took 30 years to create...it is finished. Downward it will go.

The world....asia will now carry the world. STupid are all govenments and ways of doing things in this samsara...asia just a bit less stupid.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Yeah I've looked at that before. Really cool.


Their designs are energy expensive -- only possible 50 years ago.

We are heading back to a wood-based economy. The only problem with that is that we do not have good forest managment skills.

We have enough coal for the next three hundred years or so, but that is not fantastic.

N


Tech breakthroughs are unpredictable. there is considerable manpower being put into new energy tech. Tesla designed wireless global free electricity.

I believe the basis for energy in venusproject.org is geothermal.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:55 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Full-blown communism if not just socialism will have to be revisted. Marx predicted that communism would be preceded by a sort of technological apex of the capitalist regime. So then, previous communist regimes were premature. If you believe the futurists, they predict a techno apex this century, "the singularity." If what they are saying is so, the future will be beyond anything we can imagine now.


Marx thought capitalism was progressive, and you are correct, in his view, advanced capitialism was required before a successful socialism, etc.

What he did not understand was peak oil.

Same with the futurists. It used to be the case that we got a 300:1 return on energy invested in oil recovery. Now we are down to 10:1.

People who live in cities, who depend on the petro-driven civilization, are in for it. People who live in the country, who can grow food, will have more resiliance.

N


I'm not 100% convinced this will all end or we are having a return to pastoral civilization. Significant tech research can survive on solar. It is very possible a significant tech breakthrough will change the energy situation. What happens between now and then is perhaps as you have described, but the long term is a blur.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:58 pm

Today's 500 point drop is significant. Past fluctuations in the market have had the feel of knee jerk reactions. Today's had the feel of reality setting in. Old issues reconsidered led to a major sale. I would mark today as the day when the second leg of the bear market got started in earnest.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:06 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:Sustainability in this day and age...growing your own food that type of thing....there are just to many of us.
This area where I live for instance in native american times and even first european settler times maybe it sustained about 20 to 30 thousand in the entire area....now 1 million is my guess..

Getting back to a sustainable level in this present time means subtracting 970 thousand peoples..just not enough food and water, with no drought and no global warming effect .
And those that think....well I'm OK I have my land my well....you may be.....970 thousand will be looking to get what you have...the rational.....it is food for my children....as they kill you they will say that thing....it is bad what I do but it is for my children you must die and I take your food.
It will be considered even a nobel endeavor.

If you look at the sustainability level where you live in the US it is the level populations were at prior to the european invasion.
Beyond that its kill or be killed to many just to many people.
No dharma is practiced in such a environment...if things get that bad.
Other areas hard to tell what is sustainability but I'd guess by our example 1 e thousandths of what you have where you live.

Asia will come through this economic thing.... so I don't personally fear right now wholescale death and destruction. Later on global warming and its consequence...asia is in the crosshairs,

This is not good for dharma any way you cut it

Right now...QE3 will be discussed at the next fed meeting next week. They I'm sure intended to wait until the summer before the elections with that thing to artificially boost the market and drive money from bonds into stocks but....500 point down day will force their hand by my take.
They will talk about it at the next fed meeting and then implement it a bit in small fashion between then and the election...I'd guess starting next month...
So the markets will rebound on that thing.

Structually with the right wing cuts and tax cuts... smaller government the economy, the consumer is screwed. Lower gas prices though.
The talking heads are falling over themselves today trying to avoid the issue that the debt ceiling right wing win had anything to do with the present down dow as that is the ideology they must defend....

it was absolutely that and since no FDR willing to take on corporate interests is on the horizon.....long term things look dim..Smaller american government spells lesser jobs.
Imagine if they really when they had the opportunity early in 09 spent money on real things like jobs building things we can use like bridges water systems perhaps alternative energy...mostly it was just wasted.

So the market will rise again due to QE3. The economy...america.... until they do away with this aversion to government and big federal government in particular which took 30 years to create...it is finished. Downward it will go.

The world....asia will now carry the world. STupid are all govenments and ways of doing things in this samsara...asia just a bit less stupid.


This hell on Earth situation of sudden depopulation is what the peak oil apocalypse promoters say must happen. That populations must return to the levels they were at pre-oil, which is between 500 mil and 1 bil, because oil is the energy that led to all these births and sustained the population explosion. It is a rather terrifying reality they propose. But there are so many fuels like shale gas and so many combinations that will keep this boat going enough so that mass death doesn't happen. With all the possible fuels the window to find and switch to sustainable energy is like 50-100 years. "The singularity" will happen by then, and sentient super-intelligent AI will probably figure out free energy, if not the scientists in the meat suits.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:10 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:Right now...QE3 will be discussed at the next fed meeting next week. They I'm sure intended to wait until the summer before the elections with that thing to artificially boost the market and drive money from bonds into stocks but....500 point down day will force their hand by my take.
They will talk about it at the next fed meeting and then implement it a bit in small fashion between then and the election...I'd guess starting next month...
So the markets will rebound on that thing.


There are studies that show the Fed is powerless to change the direction of the market. In fact, the studies show that the Fed's involvement with bail outs, lower interest rates, bond buy-backs and such actually accelerate the prevailing downward trend.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:13 pm

ronnewmexico wrote:asia just a bit less stupid.


They are cautious but completely dependent on the West. China has tried to diversify with investments in Africa, but come on. No doing. The West declines, they will all decline. Soon China's housing bubble will burst and their high flying stock average will drop like a rock. India will do what it has always done, go back to poor.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:15 pm

tummo wrote:
It's not that easy. Even Mila needed food. You think Americans are going to stop by your house and drop off food? That's a laugh.


Basic agriculture will always survive (there are studies done by economists showing that people will survive if they make Zero money)

Nettle root rocks!

Anyway, your reality is whatever you want it to be. Easy or difficult depends entirely on how your mind looks at it.
So in my view there is no dim economics.



Yogis don't do agriculture, usually. I've heard of retreat folks grow potatoes and beans. Very Walden.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:26 pm

adinatha wrote:
This hell on Earth situation of sudden depopulation is what the peak oil apocalypse promoters say must happen.That populations must return to the levels they were at pre-oil, which is between 500 mil and 1 bil, because oil is the energy that led to all these births and sustained the population explosion.


Not everyone in the peak oil community are predicting a catastrophe, the more balanced, like Greer, predict a long, halting, grinding stop with gradual population declines over the next four centuries.

Think Rome.

Shale oil, tar sands and so on is incredibly expensive to extract, like 4:1.

Also, as demand for oil drops because of a lack of demand from manufacturing because of oil scarcity (when oil become too scarce, industries that depend on it (plastics, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, industrial agriculture, etc.) will fail unilaterally, the price of oil will drop precipitously, and this drop in price will make these hard to access types of oil even less profitable.

Barring some amazing unforseen energy source, a long collapse is a reality, not a speculation.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby ronnewmexico » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:56 pm

Oil energy is all a function of expense...we never run out of anything....it becomes more expensive. HOw much we consume is in relation to expense.
Eventually expense destroys consumption..Oil energy these things in isolation have little singular dire consequence...as they impact food and water(which they will)..is read the dire impacts.

On the fed and the market..no offense but I don't make predictions lightly. I do this a bit, and do mistime things.... but the basic things I don't tend to get them wrong....QE3 will lift the market. A number of reasons why. Long term is a QE sustainable..yes you are completely right...no it is not.
The question is when do they implement it....so that is why it is hard to predict. I'm on that trade right now....Even Meridith Whitney is wrong at times I guess but the big ones she got right.

Do nothing the fed..this market is finished. Obama et al can't allow that.....corporations are now their bread and butter.
Things in asia will not be necessarily pretty considering the likely senario of the american/european economies, but the sheer numbers of peoples now being exposed to and becoming a consumerism segment of society in asia is astounding.
The scale compared to things in the US....amazing. Asia, largly china, certainly already had a 20% correction, and not much, with the exception of certain stocks, in the way of rebound. Just one time count the number of cities in China in excess of 1 million compared to the us the numbers will surprise you.
Power plant being opened in China..last I checked one per month.

ASia can pull the rest of the world this is no longer what was. Low growth rate in China is but 7% GDP(numbers machined a bit but not completely) as opposed to double digits. Compare that to US 1.5%..if lucky.
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:05 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
This hell on Earth situation of sudden depopulation is what the peak oil apocalypse promoters say must happen.That populations must return to the levels they were at pre-oil, which is between 500 mil and 1 bil, because oil is the energy that led to all these births and sustained the population explosion.


Not everyone in the peak oil community are predicting a catastrophe, the more balanced, like Greer, predict a long, halting, grinding stop with gradual population declines over the next four centuries.

Think Rome.

Shale oil, tar sands and so on is incredibly expensive to extract, like 4:1.

Also, as demand for oil drops because of a lack of demand from manufacturing because of oil scarcity (when oil become too scarce, industries that depend on it (plastics, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, industrial agriculture, etc.) will fail unilaterally, the price of oil will drop precipitously, and this drop in price will make these hard to access types of oil even less profitable.

Barring some amazing unforseen energy source, a long collapse is a reality, not a speculation.

N


tech breakthroughs two years back make shale oil much cheaper to extract.

Barring the unforeseen, so much is unforeseen.

The slow depopulation makes sense, already people in our generation in Japan and USA are not investing in assents, not marrying, and not having children.
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Re: Economics..yes,,they are this dim

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:18 pm

adinatha wrote:
tech breakthroughs two years back make shale oil much cheaper to extract.




Yes, it used to be 2:1 and higher.

N
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http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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