the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:40 pm

adinatha wrote:
Nagarjuna also stated nirvana is peace. The Shentong point about sublime vision of the realized beings holds up. We are talking about the mind, not mental faculty, but the nature.


In terms of the path, there is no difference at all between the Yogacara presentation and the Madhyamaka presentation, so this is a kind of redundant thing to say.

The controversy is over whether there is a difference in view between Yogacara and Madhyamaka.

gzhan stong pas are Tibetan partisans of Yogacara who assert a)there is a diference between Cittamatra and Yogacara, and b1) Yogacara is either higher than Madhyamaka b2) or is a form of Madhyamaka with a difference in emphasis.

Basically, there are three alternatives:

Madhyamaka is higher than Yogacara
Madhyamaka and Yogacara have the same meaning with different emphasis
Madhyamaka is inferior to Yogacara.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:42 pm

adinatha wrote:
Sure.


Then yes, from a Madhyamaka perspective, dharmakāya has (these) qualities.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Sure.


Then yes, from a Madhyamaka perspective, dharmakāya has (these) qualities.

N


Well wait a minute now I am confused again if we say dharmakaya has qualities that is shentong view.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:57 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Sure.


Then yes, from a Madhyamaka perspective, dharmakāya has (these) qualities.

N


Well wait a minute now I am confused again if we say dharmakaya has qualities that is shentong view.


No, there is no problem with dharmakaya having qualities from a traditional Madhyamaka perspective.
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:58 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Sure.


Then yes, from a Madhyamaka perspective, dharmakāya has (these) qualities.

N


Okay so these qualities too:

"...all phenomena are completely pure by nature, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of absence of things. All phenomena are contained within bodhicitta, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of great compassion. All phenomena are luminous by nature, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of nonreferencing. All phenomena are impermanent, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of no attachment to anything. If the mind is realized, it is wisdom, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception that buddha is not to be sought elsewhere."

Point of Passage Wisdom Sutra


Pure. All-encompassing-Vajradhara. Luminous. Detached. Wisdom.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:10 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Nagarjuna also stated nirvana is peace. The Shentong point about sublime vision of the realized beings holds up. We are talking about the mind, not mental faculty, but the nature.


In terms of the path, there is no difference at all between the Yogacara presentation and the Madhyamaka presentation, so this is a kind of redundant thing to say.

The controversy is over whether there is a difference in view between Yogacara and Madhyamaka.

gzhan stong pas are Tibetan partisans of Yogacara who assert a)there is a diference between Cittamatra and Yogacara, and b1) Yogacara is either higher than Madhyamaka b2) or is a form of Madhyamaka with a difference in emphasis.

Basically, there are three alternatives:

Madhyamaka is higher than Yogacara
Madhyamaka and Yogacara have the same meaning with different emphasis
Madhyamaka is inferior to Yogacara.


(b2)

Because Madhyamaka is primarily a tool to destroy the views of other schools. It doesn't establish it's own view. But Yogacara, as I see it, just goes one step farther and says, "by the way, the buddhas have sublime vision." The sublimity is beyond non-existence while also being unconditioned. This is sort of as far as one can go, because the moment one tries to pinpoint what is unconditioned, there's nothing to point to. No possessor or existing thing. This experience itself points out the magically luminous nature of mind. Statements like this about luminosity, bodhicitta and such are what mediate against the "nothingness bias" can creep in during dharma study.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:12 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Sure.


Then yes, from a Madhyamaka perspective, dharmakāya has (these) qualities.

N


Okay so these qualities too:

"...all phenomena are completely pure by nature, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of absence of things. All phenomena are contained within bodhicitta, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of great compassion. All phenomena are luminous by nature, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of nonreferencing. All phenomena are impermanent, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of no attachment to anything. If the mind is realized, it is wisdom, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception that buddha is not to be sought elsewhere."

Point of Passage Wisdom Sutra


Pure. All-encompassing-Vajradhara. Luminous. Detached. Wisdom.


Not really sure of what your point is.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:15 pm

adinatha wrote:Statements like this about luminosity, bodhicitta and such are what mediate against the "nothingness bias" can creep in during dharma study.


If someone has a nothingness bias, they have not understood Madhyamaka nor have they understood the two truths. One does not need Yogacara at all. One simply needs to understand the stage of the path and even the attainment of Buddhahood is all completely relative and not ultimate at all in any way, shape or form.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:16 pm

Namdrol wrote:No, there is no problem with dharmakaya having qualities from a traditional Madhyamaka perspective.

Don't understand. How can something free from extremes of existence and nonexistence "have qualities"? Isn't this like something Dolpopa would say? It just turns absence into an implicative negation.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:22 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:No, there is no problem with dharmakaya having qualities from a traditional Madhyamaka perspective.

Don't understand. How can something free from extremes of existence and nonexistence "have qualities"? Isn't this like something Dolpopa would say? It just turns absence into an implicative negation.


You're confusing the gzhan stong assertion that ultimate truth has qualities with a Buddha'a dharmakāya having qualities. They are not the same thing. Buddha's dharmakāya is a result of realizing the complete path, hence, it's qualities listed in that link I provided are all connected with various stages of the path that have been realized.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:45 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Then yes, from a Madhyamaka perspective, dharmakāya has (these) qualities.

N


Okay so these qualities too:

"...all phenomena are completely pure by nature, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of absence of things. All phenomena are contained within bodhicitta, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of great compassion. All phenomena are luminous by nature, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of nonreferencing. All phenomena are impermanent, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception of no attachment to anything. If the mind is realized, it is wisdom, and that being so, he shall utterly cultivate the perception that buddha is not to be sought elsewhere."

Point of Passage Wisdom Sutra


Pure. All-encompassing-Vajradhara. Luminous. Detached. Wisdom.


Not really sure of what your point is.

N


These qualities do not arise from practice. They are truth, realized or not.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:48 pm

Namdrol wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Namdrol wrote:No, there is no problem with dharmakaya having qualities from a traditional Madhyamaka perspective.

Don't understand. How can something free from extremes of existence and nonexistence "have qualities"? Isn't this like something Dolpopa would say? It just turns absence into an implicative negation.


You're confusing the gzhan stong assertion that ultimate truth has qualities with a Buddha'a dharmakāya having qualities. They are not the same thing. Buddha's dharmakāya is a result of realizing the complete path, hence, it's qualities listed in that link I provided are all connected with various stages of the path that have been realized.

N


The dharmakaya is realized, fully perceived, by completing the path, but that does not mean these qualities don't exist until one completes the path.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:50 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Statements like this about luminosity, bodhicitta and such are what mediate against the "nothingness bias" can creep in during dharma study.


If someone has a nothingness bias, they have not understood Madhyamaka nor have they understood the two truths. One does not need Yogacara at all. One simply needs to understand the stage of the path and even the attainment of Buddhahood is all completely relative and not ultimate at all in any way, shape or form.

N


Perhaps one does't need Madhyamaka either. Masters use tools when needed. The complete path can be traversed without ever studying Madhyamaka.
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:02 pm

adinatha wrote:
These qualities do not arise from practice. They are truth, realized or not.


This sutra is talking about how to die. It is not listing qualities of dharmakāya.

The passage is not well translated, since it actually says that mind is the _cause_ of the arising of wisdom, thus, do not seek Buddhahood elsewhere.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:02 pm

adinatha wrote:Perhaps one does't need Madhyamaka either. Masters use tools when needed. The complete path can be traversed without ever studying Madhyamaka.


Rarely.

N
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:12 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
These qualities do not arise from practice. They are truth, realized or not.


This sutra is talking about how to die. It is not listing qualities of dharmakāya.

The passage is not well translated, since it actually says that mind is the _cause_ of the arising of wisdom, thus, do not seek Buddhahood elsewhere.

N


Pure is not a quality?

Perhaps the Tibetan is not well translated: the dharmakaya is caused? Or vidya?
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:18 pm

adinatha wrote:
...the dharmakaya is caused? Or vidya?


It really depends on how you are defining dharmakāya and in what context.

So you need to decide whether we are talking about Madhyamaka, or we are talking about secret mantra tenets. If the latter, than we need to start a seperate thread. There is no concept of "dharmakāya of the basis" in Sutra.

N
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http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://atikosha.org
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:22 pm

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Perhaps one does't need Madhyamaka either. Masters use tools when needed. The complete path can be traversed without ever studying Madhyamaka.


Rarely.

N


Drikungpas generally treat Mahamudra as free from extremes Madhyamaka. Or we can start a separate thread. But this one is about Western use of Madhyamaka. Here we've inherited all levels, and Madhyamaka still applies at all levels, even in Dzogchen as Mipham has written in "Beacon of Certainty."
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 04, 2011 7:49 pm

adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:Perhaps one does't need Madhyamaka either. Masters use tools when needed. The complete path can be traversed without ever studying Madhyamaka.


Rarely.

N


Drikungpas generally treat Mahamudra as free from extremes Madhyamaka. Or we can start a separate thread. But this one is about Western use of Madhyamaka. Here we've inherited all levels, and Madhyamaka still applies at all levels, even in Dzogchen as Mipham has written in "Beacon of Certainty."


The view of Madhyamaka applies for common and uncommon Mahayana, but the path of sutra and tantra are different and many concepts are different.

So here, we were discussing the idea of the three kāyas and Dharmakāya in particular from a Madhyamaka common Mahayana perspective. You might find it profitable to consult Mipham's comments in Introduction to the Middle Way, pg. 338-334.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: the ever-changing Western view of Madhyamaka

Postby adinatha » Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:46 pm

Basically, the dharmakaya is the empty mind.
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