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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:42 pm 
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Clarence wrote:
Do I understand that right?


Yes, you do.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:40 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Clarence wrote:
Do I understand that right?


Yes, you do.


When recognizing the Natural State, can one have thoughts?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:12 pm 
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Clarence wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Clarence wrote:
Do I understand that right?


Yes, you do.


When recognizing the Natural State, can one have thoughts?



Yes. Thoughts arise from that state and return to it.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:

Yes. Thoughts arise from that state and return to it.


So, what you are saying, if I understand correctly, is that the Natural State and thoughts are like a package which is encompassed and known by Rigpa?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:16 pm 
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Clarence wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

Yes. Thoughts arise from that state and return to it.


So, what you are saying, if I understand correctly, is that the Natural State and thoughts are like a package which is encompassed and known by Rigpa?


RIgpa is knowing what reality is. Like wine, it ages and deepens. Unlike wine, it never "falls apart", though continued familiarity with it matures it faster.

N

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Thanks Namdrol. I do appreciate the answers. Quite a bit of clarity gained today.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:22 pm 
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being is important, but so is becoming. when you see ripa it is this normal sensation we have when we see objects or exactly the same as when we look within. this normal sensation is emptiness. we have had this all the time, nothing new. just didnt recognise it for what it is.
best wishes, Tom.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 4:30 pm 
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When we say "Knowledge" of the natural state is rigpa, by "knowledge" we mean gnosis not knowledge as in the acquisition of intellectual data, right?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:19 pm 
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White Lotus wrote:
being is important, but so is becoming. when you see ripa it is this normal sensation we have when we see objects or exactly the same as when we look within. this normal sensation is emptiness. we have had this all the time, nothing new. just didnt recognise it for what it is.
best wishes, Tom.


Tom,

I'm afraid rigpa isn't a sensation. All kinds of sensations and thoughts may arise when one is in rigpa, but they are not to be confused with rigpa itself or emptiness. And there isn't any looking in Dzogchen proper, whether within, without, or somewhere in between.

Have you ever received Dzogchen empowerment from an authentic Dzogchen lama? I'm just asking because I'm curious where you get your information from.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:21 pm 
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Fa Dao wrote:
When we say "Knowledge" of the natural state is rigpa, by "knowledge" we mean gnosis not knowledge as in the acquisition of intellectual data, right?


Correct.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:43 pm 
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Fa Dao wrote:
When we say "Knowledge" of the natural state is rigpa, by "knowledge" we mean gnosis not knowledge as in the acquisition of intellectual data, right?


By knowledge, we mean that you know what is being discussed. No need to gum up the works with fancy words like gnosis. In the beginning you need to acquire intellectual data. Then you need to apply it. This is all part of "rigpa".

If you say that rigpa is only a "gnosis" than this makes things more complicated --it means in order to have that knowledge you must already be awakened. But this is not the case. Rigpa is the knowledge you have that allows you to wake up. Rigpa is a complicated word in Dzogchen texts, and has different meanings in different contexts, but generally it just means knowledge, which in English is the antonym of ignorance (ma rig pa). Conceptual knowledge is inlcuded under the general definition of vidyā, this is a poorly understood point.

N

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:52 am 
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got it..thanks

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:12 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:
When we say "Knowledge" of the natural state is rigpa, by "knowledge" we mean gnosis not knowledge as in the acquisition of intellectual data, right?


By knowledge, we mean that you know what is being discussed. No need to gum up the works with fancy words like gnosis. In the beginning you need to acquire intellectual data. Then you need to apply it. This is all part of "rigpa".

If you say that rigpa is only a "gnosis" than this makes things more complicated --it means in order to have that knowledge you must already be awakened. But this is not the case. Rigpa is the knowledge you have that allows you to wake up. Rigpa is a complicated word in Dzogchen texts, and has different meanings in different contexts, but generally it just means knowledge, which in English is the antonym of ignorance (ma rig pa). Conceptual knowledge is inlcuded under the general definition of vidyā, this is a poorly understood point.

N



This should be explained thoroughly in every Dzogchen book ever written. Thank you very much, Namdrol, for finally clarifying this all-important term. Many people seem to talk about it as if it's just a state of nondistracted, nonconceptual awareness in which thoughts may arise but which do not become distractions from the recognition of awareness. This is actually the impression I've been under and so when I experience this, I think of it as rigpa, which may very well be a big part of what rigpa means, but does not sound like the full definition. I suppose this may have something to do with the many things ChNN has said over the years that make me just go, "HUH?" like in the My Reincarnation movie where he tells the student (paraphrased), "there is not really much to change, it is not like one day you are transformed. Practice is about discovering something and becoming aware of that knowledge and working with that knowledge" ... and also his repeated instruction to remain present when we are going about our daily activities. Becoming aware of how the mind works and being mindful of it seems to be what rigpa is about, if I am not misunderstanding something or going too far here.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:
When we say "Knowledge" of the natural state is rigpa, by "knowledge" we mean gnosis not knowledge as in the acquisition of intellectual data, right?


By knowledge, we mean that you know what is being discussed. No need to gum up the works with fancy words like gnosis. In the beginning you need to acquire intellectual data. Then you need to apply it. This is all part of "rigpa".

If you say that rigpa is only a "gnosis" than this makes things more complicated --it means in order to have that knowledge you must already be awakened. But this is not the case. Rigpa is the knowledge you have that allows you to wake up. Rigpa is a complicated word in Dzogchen texts, and has different meanings in different contexts, but generally it just means knowledge, which in English is the antonym of ignorance (ma rig pa). Conceptual knowledge is inlcuded under the general definition of vidyā, this is a poorly understood point.

N


True, but in Dzogchen Trechö rigpa is not conceptual knowledge, that also seems to be poorly understood.

/magnus

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:50 pm 
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heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
Fa Dao wrote:
When we say "Knowledge" of the natural state is rigpa, by "knowledge" we mean gnosis not knowledge as in the acquisition of intellectual data, right?


By knowledge, we mean that you know what is being discussed. No need to gum up the works with fancy words like gnosis. In the beginning you need to acquire intellectual data. Then you need to apply it. This is all part of "rigpa".

If you say that rigpa is only a "gnosis" than this makes things more complicated --it means in order to have that knowledge you must already be awakened. But this is not the case. Rigpa is the knowledge you have that allows you to wake up. Rigpa is a complicated word in Dzogchen texts, and has different meanings in different contexts, but generally it just means knowledge, which in English is the antonym of ignorance (ma rig pa). Conceptual knowledge is inlcuded under the general definition of vidyā, this is a poorly understood point.

N


True, but in Dzogchen Trechö rigpa is not conceptual knowledge, that also seems to be poorly understood.

/magnus


Conceptual knowledge is included in rigpa in tregchö -- this is why we have rig pa cog bzhag.

N

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:34 pm 
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Namdrol wrote:
heart wrote:
Namdrol wrote:

By knowledge, we mean that you know what is being discussed. No need to gum up the works with fancy words like gnosis. In the beginning you need to acquire intellectual data. Then you need to apply it. This is all part of "rigpa".

If you say that rigpa is only a "gnosis" than this makes things more complicated --it means in order to have that knowledge you must already be awakened. But this is not the case. Rigpa is the knowledge you have that allows you to wake up. Rigpa is a complicated word in Dzogchen texts, and has different meanings in different contexts, but generally it just means knowledge, which in English is the antonym of ignorance (ma rig pa). Conceptual knowledge is inlcuded under the general definition of vidyā, this is a poorly understood point.

N


True, but in Dzogchen Trechö rigpa is not conceptual knowledge, that also seems to be poorly understood.

/magnus


Conceptual knowledge is included in rigpa in tregchö -- this is why we have rig pa cog bzhag.

N


I am afraid that makes no sense. Does ChNN say this?

/magnus

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:53 am 
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heart wrote:

I am afraid that makes no sense. Does ChNN say this?

/magnus


Rig pa cog bzhag is allowing all thoughts to be as they are. Conceptual knowledge is included in thoughts.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:40 am 
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Rigpa is that which enables you to be astonished that there is something rather than nothing.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:53 am 
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padma norbu wrote:
I suppose this may have something to do with the many things ChNN has said over the years that make me just go, "HUH?" like in the My Reincarnation movie where he tells the student (paraphrased), "there is not really much to change, it is not like one day you are transformed. Practice is about discovering something and becoming aware of that knowledge and working with that knowledge" ... and also his repeated instruction to remain present when we are going about our daily activities. Becoming aware of how the mind works and being mindful of it seems to be what rigpa is about, if I am not misunderstanding something or going too far here.

That nature is always there. If there is any light, any existence, any blood, any form, any thing at all, then the nature is already available. You don't need a coupon, a discount, a charge card, a bucket, anything. It's there. So there is nothing to worry about. All things have the same essence. Everything is perfect.

Kevin

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:07 am 
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gad rgyangs wrote:
Rigpa is that which enables you to be astonished that there is something rather than nothing.


What are you, a Heidegger fan?

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