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the great rebirth debate - Page 42 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
meindzai
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:20 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:58 am


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:00 am


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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:28 am


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:26 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:17 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:58 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Sun Jan 31, 2010 11:02 pm


meindzai
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:49 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:59 pm


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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:40 am

Hmm... Didn't we spend a lot of time discussing right view in this thread?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2689
:reading:

Mike

Paññāsikhara
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Paññāsikhara » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:27 pm

Sorry to cut in during the middle of a discussion, but just found a very interesting article from Johannes Bronkhorst who is quickly becoming my favorite Buddhist scholar for 2010! I'm presently reading his Two Traditions of Meditation in Ancient India, it rocks!

So, checking out what he has written, he is an incredibly prolific author, literally 5-15 papers and books a year. A lot are available for download, here:
https://applicationspub.unil.ch/interpu ... LanCode=37

It even has a whole book or two, eg. and (both of which I just bought on Sunday! :tongue: )

One of them is this:
JOHANNES BRONKHORST
DID THE BUDDHA BELIEVE IN KARMA AND REBIRTH?*
(published in: Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies 21(1), 1998, pp. 1-19)
http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_84209201AE31.pdf

The concluding passages write:

Let us return to the subject-matter of this lecture: Did the Buddha believe in
karma and rebirth? The answer, in so far as the texts allow us to reach an answer, seems
to me an unambiguous ‘yes’. The Buddha did believe in rebirth, and he did believe that
one's future destiny is determined by what we may call karma, but which is in some
essential respects different from what his contemporaries meant by it. For the Buddha,
one's future destiny is determined by what passes in one's mind, i.e., by desires and
intentions.27 And there is no reason to think that this future destiny consisted for him
exclusively of heaven and underworld.

27 To be distinguished from mere mental activity, which — being one form of activity — also other
religious movements, such as Jainism, tried to suppress.


If you also read the whole article, you'll get an interesting look into the various academic perspectives on this topic.

He is a very critical scholar, and doesn't seem to take anything at face (or text) value only. He is also extremely familiar with the other non-buddhist systems both before, during and after the Buddha's time. He makes clear distinctions between them, and provides evidence. For this reason, I think that his comments above are well worth noting. Particularly in the light of the "the Buddha just accepted rebirth / reincarnation because everyone else did". There is no way that Bronkhorst would accept such an otherwise cloth-eared claim without very good reason. He obviously feels that there is more to it than that.

Okay, back to the regular show ... :focus:
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: .

meindzai
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:56 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:44 pm


meindzai
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:16 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:23 pm


meindzai
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby meindzai » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:18 pm

Basically what you are saying is that you'd rather have wrong view and cling to the aggregates than right view and cling to the aggregates?

-M

vinasp
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby vinasp » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:45 pm

Hi everyone,

This passage seems to be the focus of the debate at present.

‘There is that which is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are good and virtuous recluses and brahmins in the world who have themselves realized by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world’" (Majjhima Nikaya 41.14).

In my understanding it says nothing about literal rebirth. Everything that it says can be understood as pertaining to this life.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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bodom
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:49 pm

What do you understand the "other world" to suggest?

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:16 pm



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