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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:27 pm 
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I disagree with many of the statements versed here.

marial arts to my opinion are always about causeing less harm for oneself and others.. Martial arts fighting techniques inappropritely called martial arts to my opinion furthur confuse the issue.

A proper martial artist does not fight ever...that is their art. When in fight one uses technique that causes least damage.
One is not kickboxing in a ring or mixed martial arts fighting in a cage...if I want to blind someone by hitting them unaware in eye socket and crush someones windpipe this may certainly be done..but in proper martial arts is not, as it is not the thing to do.

How we may protect ourselves and others is what this is all about. A person hit with claw hammer in the head as a person here attested to by close relative those things do happen. Martial arts is not ever getting in that situation. If one is then one employes this to least harm to oneself and other.

That circumstances can or do exist due to real violence is truth. WE can be forced to do these things.The first option is to run away.The second is to then fight to protect oneself. The best option in all circumstances is to not be attacked in the first place.
Means such as where one frequents, how one acts how one looks are these first means.They are martial arts as well as any punch or kick.
To conduct oneself only employing the latter and not the first is to be looking for trouble one will find.

Few consider martial arts in this context. Though I have little training and no accomplishment...I knom my teahers, and my teachers teach exactly that....and they are accomplished.

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"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:38 pm 
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It was from my perspective that running is always the first option as self-defense. But if one is protecting a loved one, and there is nowhere to run....

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:50 pm 
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One should not have been in that situation...hate to say it........... but the real reality of violence is it is almost(not always) but almost a consequence of not being aware of peoples things and circumstances.
Suchly the greatest protection from violence is preventing the circumstance from presenting.By being aware...it then is buddhism.

Some take martial arts as being fighting techniques...my teachers have taught me that is the last part of the art and the least part for good reason...almost inconsequential as none of my teachers had engaged in actual fights for many many years.
It produces harm so why should they fight? But they never run as well it is not necessary.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:00 pm 
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ronnewmexico wrote:
One should not have been in that situation...hate to say it........... but the real reality of violence is it is almost(not always) but almost a consequence of not being aware of peoples things and circumstances.


From karmic perspective, sure. However telling that to someone who does not believe %100 in karmic results, they would tell you that was naive and ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:16 pm 
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No in real circumstance. Karma may allow for the very rare occurance of violence to happen upon a totally innocent person.

Tell me everytime you enter a place you are aware of each and every person in that place can study them do study them and find them to be threat to yourself or other...(you may have to protect other)....and then after you do that...tell me then things just happen mostly by accident.

They do not. They happen as we don't pay attention...that is how violence happens.
As unconscious thing wolves...will predate a hurt animal. If you are around wolves you will know they can tell who is sick or injured. That is their preference. They attack unhurt only at last resort as that requires more energy.

People as they are attack as predators those of them that are appearing unaware...almost always.That is our indicator of hurt.We attack those who appear to not know. Humans are physically corrupt they can't even catch a rabbit, even a hurt rabbit..they suck physcially.
Human catch rabbit in only one way...unawares,they catch rabbit or thing unawares.
So subconsciously the marker for human predationb is almost always one who is perceived as unawares.

So present as aware...you will like as not not be the choice of victim...that is martial arts. Knowing that. That is buddhism.
I'm sorry most people were taught fighting techniques that is all they were taught..mostly a waste of time, they will still be volated in some manner.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:23 pm 
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ronnewmexico wrote:
No in real circumstance. Karma may allow for the very rare occurance of violence to happen upon a totally innocent person.

Tell me everytime you enter a place you are aware of each and every person in that place can study them do study them and find them to be threat to yourself or other...(you may have to protect other)....and then after you do that...tell me then things just happen mostly by accident.

They do not. They happen as we don't pay attention...that is how violence happens.
As unconscious thing wolves...will predate a hurt animal. If you are around wolves you will know they can tell who is sick or injured. That is their preference. They attack unhurt only at last resort as that requires more energy.

People as they are attack as predators those of them that are appearing unaware...almost always.That is our indicator of hurt.We attack those who appear to not know. Humans are physically corrupt they can't even catch a rabbit, even a hurt rabbit..they suck physcially.
Human catch rabbit in only one way...unawares,they catch rabbit or thing unawares.
So subconsciously the marker for human predationb is almost always one who is perceived as unawares.

So present as aware...you will like as not not be the choice of victim...that is martial arts. Knowing that. That is buddhism.


If you think just "being aware" will prevent you from being a victim of a violent crime or robbery in the Bronx subways, you're seriously mistaken. Magical thinking won't save you. Siddhis, sure, but magical thinking, no.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:33 pm 
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Well if you think it is necessary to travel in a particular subway at a particular time of night or day and then find yourself suseptable to attack and say...why me..you have to ask as well why others seem to use this subway and not suffer attack.

If all were attacked few would use it....not all are..the unaware are by various markers the predators which decides who is victim.

that may be marker of color of build of gender of whatever that signals in predator the unware..you are the unaware.
The job in martial arts is to present the presentation of awareness....always.
So you employ means to do so.
Appearence may become a tool for instance to enable that perception.We cannot alter many things we can alter may things of appearence.

I could elaborate in many fashions. We had a burguler in my area that I and a neighbor eventually halted. The burguler attempted to break into many homes all in my immediate vicinity with one exception...mine.
Why...everlast heavy bag sits on the porch old pickup truck in the yard and old car sometimes in the driveway.

I give the appearence of having nothing. So lack of awareness to this burguler is a person who is rich but working much not home and thusly vulnerable in their unawareness to predation...So i produce opposite appearence and am never attacked in that fashion.
I am as he is by appearence then in his mind aware of things as he sees them. He may folk with me...but only at last resort.

I could go on and on..98% of this thing of violence is appearence. 2% innocent victim of karma.

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"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:44 pm 
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ronnewmexico wrote:
I am as he is by appearence then in his mind aware of things as he sees them. He may folk with me...but only at last resort.

I could go on and on..98% of this thing of violence is appearence. 2% innocent victim of karma



So you admit that it is not beyond the realm of possibility that no matter how well your mental or physical preparations are, you do have the potential to be a target of crime then. Criminal violence is anomolous, that's obvious....the point is that it does happen.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:51 pm 
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Yes...2%, I say that from the get go.

If you want to learn martial arts fighting technique and spend large amounts of your time preparing for the 2%...I say go for it.
YOu may be unwise to my opinion but what matter.

If you want to prepare for the 98% eventuality...I say work at being aware of things, how people are and how we motivate.... as with old car I prevent robbery...use 2% of your time then learing fighting techniques....
to my opinion that would be wise.

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"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:59 pm 
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ronnewmexico wrote:
.

If you want to learn martial arts fighting technique and spend large amounts of your time preparing for the 2%...I say go for it.


Large amounts of time is not required. Far less time than the amount of time most people watch television or surf the web

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:09 pm 
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My point is about all would find their time better spent in studying awareness and people how they are aware than fighting technique.
I hit heavy bag about twice and week and employ spiritual protective measure, but karma being as karma is if I am going to get beaten up or robbed it will happen. But I do what I can wasting it on martial arts when a 2% chance is possible and avoiding the 98% certainty..unwise.

I stopped a slash and grab at my house. Four individuals, young guys...use my phone....going to job site. 1 in the afternoone...no job site at that time is gone to. No four and not four at this hour going to job.
So...poor...guy let one in to use phone, produced knife and then he slashed owner while others came in and took stuff...

The means was the door. The unawareness..was he had to enter.... if I let in him that was my unawareness. If I went out the door I have no protection..he does the same slash and grab. I stay by the door the door being linked to his perception of my awareness he is stymied.
I say job site right up the hill...he comes back tries again..I say phone not working....he never gets the door.

He leaves...nothing happens. I tell police...
So the 98% is a virtual certainity we will encounter violence. Prepare for the 2% certainly but only in the context of the 98%...its mileau is awareness of others and oneself how we are percevied...that is buddhism.

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"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:21 pm 
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ronnewmexico wrote:
My point is about all would find their time better spent in studying awareness and people how they are aware than fighting technique.


Sure, I agree, but neglecting spending an extremely short period of time studying self-defense, and then stopping completely (which can be done) to be prepared for an unpleasant situatation is an extreme. It doesn't have be an all or nothing decision.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:33 pm 
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Well I agree.

One can never just sit on martial arts fighting training and expect it to work when applied to my opinion.

my point you seem to agree with is we must spend much more time in being aware and prepared for any circumstance we may enter into.
98% of our available time must be spent in cultivating awareness and such things 2% fighting technique. We as well may be attacked when in training for such things, the awareness is most important.
If one or the other is chosen to exculusion certainly the 98% sort. And some may do no martial arts fighting at all due to physical restriction...they may do the former..but that is martial arts as well..

the working with awareness

You deny that you deny my teachers.
You may do that....everyones entitled to their own opinions I'd guess.
You are wrong to my opinion firmly stated..but I can't prove such a thing...

It may be of little relevence to state one never is attacked...one may live in a gated community of great protection or some other
circumstance of great fortituousness. I do not and have thwarted many.... as two I have briefly mentioned.
last having to actually hit a person...four years ago. And that solely my error by inattention.
Though he be the agressor by action strictly defined..I be the agressor by lacking attention to his personage, what he was and was about.....
So by great error on my part I do engage. If I was more attentive never would even that happend(2% maybe I am more fortunate)

I know only what I do as instructed works. So I fear not violence.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:13 pm 
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ronnewmexico wrote:

One can never just sit on martial arts fighting training and expect it to work when applied to my opinion.


Nor can one rely upon awareness %100 of the time to do the same.

Quote:
my point you seem to agree with is we must spend much more time in being aware and prepared for any circumstance we may enter into.


I agree.

Quote:
You are wrong to my opinion firmly stated..but I can't prove such a thing...


No, you can't.

Quote:
I know only what I do as instructed works. So I fear not violence.


As do I.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:56 am 
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good...we agree then.

ergo I remain with initial point on this page which is..."but the real reality of violence is it is almost(not always) but almost a consequence of not being aware of peoples things and circumstances.
Suchly the greatest protection from violence is preventing the circumstance from presenting.By being aware...it then is buddhism."


Buddhism in a context of some manner may be called the process of becomeing awake. Awake may in this context be called becoming aware.

Martial arts in this context can be considered buddhism as we are becomeing aware in this process, it is key to the process. Fighting is auxiliary to the process.
Martal arts in any teaching i have had..... always insists the first step in any defensive process is being aware of what and who is around you, who is your opponant..
Martial arts protects from violence upon oneself. martial arts is not necessasrily fighting. Running away is always taught as the first method to my experience.
Martial arts are entirely consistant with buddhism.

I remain with point.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:21 am 
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ronnewmexico wrote:
Buddhism in a context of some manner may be called the process of becomeing awake. Awake may in this context be called becoming aware.
You can try to define it in any manner that suits your argument, but awareness is not awakening, it is merely a component of awakening.

Quote:
Martial arts in this context can be considered buddhism as we are becomeing aware in this process, it is key to the process. Fighting is auxiliary to the process.
Fighting is 100% auxillary to awareness but it is 100% central to any real martial art.

Quote:
Martal arts in any teaching i have had..... always insists the first step in any defensive process is being aware of what and who is around you, who is your opponant.
So does robbing a bank or stalking a rape victim, do these activities also lead to awakening?

Quote:
Martial arts protects from violence upon oneself.
Don't know what martial art you have practiced but all the ones I know involve controlled violence being directed at oneself (and not always controlled depending on the student/teacher you have in front of you).

Quote:
martial arts is not necessasrily fighting.
Yes it is, otherwise it is not a martial art, it is dance or some other kind of abstract bodily movement.

Quote:
Running away is always taught as the first method to my experience.
So why do martial arts? Why not just take up jogging?

Quote:
Martial arts are entirely consistant with buddhism.
There are many, many cases that I know of personally where they are 100 % definitely not consistent!
:namaste:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:16 am 
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Having dinner tonight with a dharma friend who has been teaching Buddhism for 20 odd years and also teaching Tai Chji for almost the smae length of time. Should make for some interesting discussion..


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:22 am 
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ronnewmexico wrote:
good...we agree then.


On certain points.

Quote:
ergo I remain with initial point on this page which is..."but the real reality of violence is it is almost(not always) but almost a consequence of not being aware of peoples things and circumstances.
Suchly the greatest protection from violence is preventing the circumstance from presenting.By being aware...it then is buddhism."


It should be stressed that "almost" is not the same as "always".

Quote:
Martial arts are entirely consistant with buddhism.


Not necessarily. If one has the skillset to take a life, there is more to it.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:11 pm 
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I purposely put not always in quotes for that reason......how can it be read differently that I mean always...that is silly.

On something causeing a death or means to a death, there is a similiar sport that quite commonly was popular some years back,,called zen in archery.
This was shooting a bow as meditative practice. A bow and arrow can indeed be used to kill, in this discipline it is not.
So your point on killing being preesent posssibly and thus rejected that vehicle as buddhism....as potential of killing is present in both and one being known as established buddhist practice... that is rejected.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:41 pm 
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ronnewmexico wrote:
So your point on killing being preesent posssibly and thus rejected that vehicle as buddhism....as potential of killing is present in both and one being known as established buddhist practice... that is rejected.


What you wrote is unclear. What exactly do you mean?

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