Dharma Wheel

A Buddhist discussion forum on Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism
It is currently Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:34 pm

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Forum rules


Please click here to view the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:04 am
Posts: 292
Does a rock have buddha-nature?

_________________
...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:25 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Posts: 2445
Location: Washington DC
Acchantika wrote:
Does a rock have buddha-nature?


Yes.

_________________
NAMO AMITABHA
NAM MO A DI DA PHAT (VIETNAMESE)
NAMO AMITUOFO (CHINESE)

Linjii
―Listen! Those of you who devote yourselves to the Dharma
must not be afraid of losing your bodies and your lives―


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 9:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
Buddhanature is emptiness and since all things are empty, yes a rock has Buddhanature.

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:04 am
Posts: 292
Huseng wrote:
Buddhanature is emptiness and since all things are empty, yes a rock has Buddhanature.

Quote:
"Our buddha-nature is awareness: to be aware and make others aware. To realize awareness is liberation."


- The Zen Teaching of Bodhidharma, 1987. pp.79

If buddha-nature is emptiness, why would the founder of Zen say that buddha-nature is awareness? Is it because they are the same?

If they are the same, is a rock aware? Or is a rock awareness?

_________________
...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:13 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Posts: 4203
Location: Budapest
Zen is not a single doctrine, both interpretations of buddha-nature exist.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:26 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
The word for Buddha-nature in Chinese fo xing 佛性 has many many meanings. :smile:

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Huseng wrote:
Buddhanature is emptiness and since all things are empty, yes a rock has Buddhanature.



This is not correct. Sentient beings are defined as the buddhadhātu, and rocks are not sentient. They cannot become Buddhas.

That fact that a rock is empty and a sentient being are empty does not mean a rock can also acheive awakening.

N

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm
Posts: 5986
Location: Taiwan
Namdrol wrote:
Huseng wrote:
Buddhanature is emptiness and since all things are empty, yes a rock has Buddhanature.



This is not correct. Sentient beings are defined as the buddhadhātu, and rocks are not sentient. They cannot become Buddhas.

That fact that a rock is empty and a sentient being are empty does not mean a rock can also acheive awakening.

N


It depends on the definition parameters.


In the Treatise on Buddha Nature 佛性論 (Fo Xing Lun) buddha-nature is equated with suchness and emptiness.

In that sense a rock is dependently originated, so it has buddha-nature.

I'm not saying a rock can achieve awakening. Only that it is empty and by some standards that means "having buddha-nature".

It is just a play of words really.

_________________
Flower Ornament Depository (Blog) Indrajāla's Contemplations (Blog) Exploring Classical Chinese (Blog) Dharma Depository (Site)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Huseng wrote:
In the Treatise on Buddha Nature 佛性論 (Fo Xing Lun) buddha-nature is equated with suchness and emptiness.


Fo xing lun is mistaken, then.

Tathāgatagarbha is not merely emptiness.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:12 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm
Posts: 1601
As a third option from the uneducated layperson's point of view...perhaps what is referenced is the ultimate or final consideration of buddha nature which is empty, or resideing as well as all other things in the mileau of emptiness.

I personally think of inert objects as our fingernails and hair as is to our body. Part and parcel or extension of us, considered as us but inert.
So rocks and things a extension of our awarness in the same manner. Our body of awareness that is. Extending from that rocks and such things inert.
Part of us but not part of us by perception.So inert but not inert as we perceive them they are to that extent as us.

_________________
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:04 am
Posts: 292
Astus wrote:
Zen is not a single doctrine, both interpretations of buddha-nature exist.


Bodhidharma said, "Realising your nature is Zen. If you don't realise your nature, its not Zen."

How can your realising your nature be subject to interpretation?

Namdrol wrote:
Huseng wrote:
Buddhanature is emptiness and since all things are empty, yes a rock has Buddhanature.


This is not correct. Sentient beings are defined as the buddhadhātu, and rocks are not sentient. They cannot become Buddhas.

That fact that a rock is empty and a sentient being are empty does not mean a rock can also acheive awakening.

N


Dōgen Zenji said that rocks and trees have/are the buddha-nature. Is this a wrong view?

Shrunryu Suzuki said, "Buddha-nature is to be aware of Buddha-nature" (1970, pp.137). Is this what you are saying?

How is this view not dualistic, if awareness and buddha-nature are not the same?

Further, how can it be direct apprehension of reality if it is mediated by something (awareness)?

-

Does the word buddha (awake) dhātu (matrix, nature) not literally mean your 'aware nature'?

_________________
...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:46 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:04 am
Posts: 292
ronnewmexico wrote:
As a third option from the uneducated layperson's point of view...perhaps what is referenced is the ultimate or final consideration of buddha nature which is empty, or resideing as well as all other things in the mileau of emptiness.

I personally think of inert objects as our fingernails and hair as is to our body. Part and parcel or extension of us, considered as us but inert.
So rocks and things a extension of our awarness in the same manner. Our body of awareness that is. Extending from that rocks and such things inert.
Part of us but not part of us by perception.So inert but not inert as we perceive them they are to that extent as us.


Well, as I understand it, the question itself is flawed as it implies that buddha nature is an attributive property and that people or objects have intrinsic, independent qualities in the first place.

But with the dissolution of all phenomena into emptiness, what is left other than the buddha nature? Why then is a sentient being's buddha nature seen as meaningful, and an insentient being's buddha nature seen as misleading?

_________________
...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:17 pm
Posts: 1601
"But with the dissolution of all phenomena into emptiness, what is left other than the buddha nature? Why then is a sentient being's buddha nature seen as meaningful, and an insentient being's buddha nature seen as misleading?"

To my opinion they are the same. The difference in perception is the basis from which one may seem misleading and another not
This however does not speak to their true basis which is exactly alike.
As perceiver how can we differentiate that which we perceive and us that perceive.....
I find no distinction. I find it harder to see things fron the other side of inert. So we work from awareness.
But to my opinion all is the mileau of emptiness and awareness..... inert and sentient.
AS alive as I am are other things as i find them. All operate from the same basis of function....awareness.

I find my nails part of my body...do you not?

So that's my opinion if I hear your question correctly.
I would suppose I would say....all things dissolve into emptiness and awareness. Nature itself is not what is left but dependant origination is what is left. A opperational principal not a thing.

When caused, it appears naturally this thing of awareness operating within its mileau of emptiness. It is not that nature or awareness arise spontaneously or by themselves, the prior cause of awareness precipitates its arousing in this present moment. So all is caused, and no nature... buddha or otherwise is found to remain without cause.

_________________
"This order considers that progress can be achieved more rapidly during a single month of self-transformation through terrifying conditions in rough terrain and in "the abode of harmful forces" than through meditating for a period of three years in towns and monasteries"....Takpo Tashi Namgyal.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 14, 2011 1:41 am
Posts: 2845
Does a stone Buddha have rock nature?

_________________
Profile Picture: "The Foaming Monk"
The Chinese characters are Fo (buddha) and Ming (bright). The image is of a student of Buddhism, who, imagining himself to be a monk, and not understanding the true meaning of the words takes the sound of the words literally. Likewise, People on web forums sometime seem to be foaming at the mouth.
Original painting by P.Volker /used by permission.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:55 am 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Posts: 4203
Location: Budapest
Dogen's explanation:

In “all living beings” spoken of here on the way of the buddha, those with minds are “all living beings”; for the mind is living beings. Those without minds are similarly living beings; for living beings are mind. Therefore, all minds are living beings, and living beings all “have the buddha nature.” The grasses, trees and lands are mind; because they are mind, they are living beings; because they are living beings, they “have the buddha nature.” The sun, moon, and stars are mind; because they are mind, they are living beings; because they are living beings, they “have the buddha nature.”
(SBGZ: Bussho)

A classical story:

Dongshan asked Yunyan, "Who can hear the teachings of the insentient?"
Yunyan said, "It can be heard by the insentient." Dongshan asked, "Do you hear it, Master?" Yunyen said, "If I heard it, then you would not hear my teaching." Dongshan answered, "That being the case, then I do not hear your teaching." Yunyan replied, "You don't even hear my teaching, how could you hear the teachings of the insentient?" Dongshan was enlightened on hearing this and responded in verse:

Wondrous! Marvelous!
The teachings of the insentient are inconceivable.
If you listen with the ears, you won't understand.
When you hear with the eyes, then you will know.


Dogen's explanation in SBGZ: Mujo Seppo
Daido roshi's teisho on it

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:04 am
Posts: 292
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Does a stone Buddha have rock nature?


Woof.

_________________
...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 1:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:04 am
Posts: 292
ronnewmexico wrote:
"But with the dissolution of all phenomena into emptiness, what is left other than the buddha nature? Why then is a sentient being's buddha nature seen as meaningful, and an insentient being's buddha nature seen as misleading?"

To my opinion they are the same. The difference in perception is the basis from which one may seem misleading and another not
This however does not speak to their true basis which is exactly alike.
As perceiver how can we differentiate that which we perceive and us that perceive.....
I find no distinction. I find it harder to see things fron the other side of inert. So we work from awareness.
But to my opinion all is the mileau of emptiness and awareness..... inert and sentient.
AS alive as I am are other things as i find them. All operate from the same basis of function....awareness.

I find my nails part of my body...do you not?

So that's my opinion if I hear your question correctly.
I would suppose I would say....all things dissolve into emptiness and awareness. Nature itself is not what is left but dependant origination is what is left. A opperational principal not a thing.

When caused, it appears naturally this thing of awareness operating within its mileau of emptiness. It is not that nature or awareness arise spontaneously or by themselves, the prior cause of awareness precipitates its arousing in this present moment. So all is caused, and no nature... buddha or otherwise is found to remain without cause.


It is this non-difference of subject and object I find confusing and difficult to penetrate. But I suppose that is the point. Who is confused?

_________________
...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am
Posts: 12736
Acchantika wrote:

Dōgen Zenji said that rocks and trees have/are the buddha-nature. Is this a wrong view?



Yes. Rocks and trees are not sentient beings, therefore, they cannot become buddhas.

_________________
http://www.atikosha.org
http://www.bhaisajya.net
http://www.bhaisajya.guru
http://www.sakyapa.net
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

How can you not practice the highest Dharma
at this time of obtaining a perfect human body?

-- Jetsun Dragpa Gyaltsen


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:48 pm 
Offline
Former staff member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Posts: 4203
Location: Budapest
The reasoning is quite simple. All is mind - mind is buddha - rocks and trees are buddha.

_________________
"There is no such thing as the real mind. Ridding yourself of delusion: that's the real mind."
(Sheng-yen: Getting the Buddha Mind, p 73)

"Neither cultivation nor seated meditation — this is the pure Chan of Tathagata."
(Mazu Daoyi, X1321p3b23; tr. Jinhua Jia)

“Don’t rashly seek the true Buddha;
True Buddha can’t be found.
Does marvelous nature and spirit
Need tempering or refinement?
Mind is this mind carefree;
This face, the face at birth."

(Nanyue Mingzan: Enjoying the Way, tr. Jeff Shore; T2076p461b24-26)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Rocky Zen
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm
Posts: 1014
Acchantika wrote:
Well, as I understand it, the question itself is flawed as it implies that buddha nature is an attributive property and that people or objects have intrinsic, independent qualities in the first place.

:good:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group