Sad, sob story

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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby Dechen Norbu » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:19 pm

Agree. It seems our friend's understanding of Dharma is not deep enough to do him much good at this moment. When a seasoned buddhist, well rooted in theory but mostly practice, finds the sort of challenges our friend is facing, he has already built tools that will help him deal with practically any situation.
In this case, I think it is exactly as username is saying: for the moment therapy is his Dharma. Couldn't have been better stated, IMO.

Give the doc a chance GT. And visit us often! This board has more to offer than simply Dharma talks/debates. Here you also find people who like talking with you and care about your well being.

Best wishes!
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby gnegirl » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:30 pm

GT: Please take care of yourself!

Come back when you are ready. Dharma will still be there for you when are ready to pick it back up again.

i wish you peace and happiness and freedom from all causes of suffering and joining to all causes of true happiness.
"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." --Surangama Sutra

Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby LastLegend » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:33 pm

username wrote:
LastLegend wrote:I beg to differ. Dharma is therapy but it depends on which branch of Dharma you are following. And in the eye of Buddha, we all are very sick.

First things first, for him at this stage, therapy is his dharma.


Well if you are following the Western model of approaching illnesses and then yes. Generally this model is based on the materialistic philosophy that mind comes from matter. Therefore we must resort to medications every time. I don't reject medications but it is only a tool from the shed.

And Buddhism is actually an advanced form of psychology if we understand it.
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby username » Fri Jul 29, 2011 10:44 pm

LastLegend wrote:
username wrote:
LastLegend wrote:I beg to differ. Dharma is therapy but it depends on which branch of Dharma you are following. And in the eye of Buddha, we all are very sick.

First things first, for him at this stage, therapy is his dharma.


Well if you are following the Western model of approaching illnesses and then yes. Generally this model is based on the materialistic philosophy that mind comes from matter. Therefore we must resort to medications every time. I don't reject medications but it is only a tool from the shed.

And Buddhism is actually an advanced form of psychology if we understand it.


Take it easy bro.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby LastLegend » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:43 pm

In my opinion Buddhism has way surpassed Western Psychology and Quantum Mechanics, and its teachings echo through all realms of existence. If we understand Buddhism properly and practice, we can cure any diseases or illnesses, and it is the ultimate form of therapy that can cure all forms of suffering of all sentient beings. Here we are talking about Buddhism everyday, yet we do not do its justice.

At this point, my comment is not about the original poster anymore but about how we look at Buddhism, how much we understand it, and how much we live by it. Why? Because here we are everyday talking about it. As for the original poster, therapy (and perhaps medications) is needed but if he somehow understands Buddhist psychology, it can be definitely useful to him.
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby username » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:13 am

Or maybe Vajrayana or anything requiring commitments can be harmful to him at this particular stage but not later. Secondly if your loved ones need treatment for acute schizophrenia or a necessary kidney replacement then it would be ridiculous for someone to bang on about not seeking expert modern medical help as primary treatment which might advise against vajrayana worries for the patient and rightly so if the patient can't let go of unnecessary unfounded extra guilt trips and/or complications. We should want the same, best treatment, for all as though they're our loved ones. Not be dogmatic and ruthless with double standards. Sometimes the helpless need to simplify.

Secondly, many are brought onto the path by many diverse routes but once established the motive should only be the relative and ultimately only absolute bodhicitta which includes all effortlessly and which is the rigpa of kadak-lhundrub. Maybe one day they can come back and even overtake most on the path rapidly.

Thirdly, all are mentally ill to some degree except fully enlightened buddhas.

Finally, never mind all rituals & beliefs, even Shakyamuni Buddhism Vajrayana and Dzogchen are all mere illusory husks and false shells to the one and only essential truth in us which most of us successfully ignore 24/7 by running away from and by even constantly talking in error about 'buddhism'. Best way to kill any chance of getting to the ineffable.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby LastLegend » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:45 am

username wrote:Or maybe Vajrayana or anything requiring commitments can be harmful to him at this particular stage but not later. Secondly if your loved ones need treatment for acute schizophrenia or a necessary kidney replacement then it would be ridiculous for someone to bang on about not seeking expert modern medical help as primary treatment which might advise against vajrayana worries for the patient and rightly so if the patient can't let go of unnecessary unfounded extra guilt trips and/or complications. We should want the same, best treatment, for all as though they're our loved ones. Not be dogmatic and ruthless with double standards. Sometimes the helpless need to simplify.


I work with the mentally ill people who have severe mental illnesses, namely schizophrenia. And they are taking medications for the rest of their lives. In the morning, in the afternoon, and in evening and non-stop. And these folks have been having these illnesses since they were young.

Again, if mind comes from matter, then taking medications will cure the illnesses but that is not the case. So I was suggesting was perhaps for him to look at Buddhism and understand it as a psychology, so like you said Vajrayana might not be a best fit for him, so I am offering something else apart from Vajrayana. Nobody said to deny medical health or the use of medications. But remember medications is only a tool from the bag.

Secondly, many are brought onto the path by many diverse routes but once established the motive should only be the relative and ultimately only absolute bodhicitta which includes all effortlessly and which is the rigpa of kadak-lhundrub. Maybe one day they can come back and even overtake most on the path rapidly.


I don't deny this. What I said was an alternative to Vajrayana, and that alternative is what I call Buddhist psychology.

Thirdly, all are mentally ill to some degree except fully enlightened buddhas.


You are correct on this.

Finally, never mind all rituals & beliefs, even Shakyamuni Buddhism Vajrayana and Dzogchen are all mere illusory husks and false shells to the one and only essential truth in us which most of us successfully ignore 24/7 by running away from and by even constantly talking in error about 'buddhism'. Best way to kill any chance of getting to the ineffable.


I don't understand what are trying to say.
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby username » Sat Jul 30, 2011 2:31 am

Not true, as a friend of mine who suffered from severe schizophrenia came off medications after years a while back and is just fine now. If when in treatment he was getting help from you, I would advise him to sever all contact with you as good instincts and intuitions are vital. Secondly everything you desparatelty believe in is contingent and transient at best, and in essence imaginary and false. Finally many psychologist doctors, don't think you're one, end up as one because they're deep down in abject terror from their parental home culture and try to understand the mind (stupid impossibility) by using others as guinea pigs so they can ultimately fix themselves. This latter part is well known amongst many fresh doctors deciding on their specialty.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby LastLegend » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:21 am

username wrote:Not true, as a friend of mine who suffered from severe schizophrenia came off medications after years a while back and is just fine now. If when in treatment he was getting help from you, I would advise him to sever all contact with you as good instincts and intuitions are vital. Secondly everything you desparatelty believe in is contingent and transient at best, and in essence imaginary and false. Finally many psychologist doctors, don't think you're one, end up as one because they're deep down in abject terror from their parental home culture and try to understand the mind (stupid impossibility) by using others as guinea pigs so they can ultimately fix themselves. This latter part is well known amongst many fresh doctors deciding on their specialty.


People who have severe mentally illnesses, namely Schizophrenia and who have been on medications for along time, and decide to stop medications and they will go through what is called "decompensation." Research this if you are interested.

I advise you to do research on the subject of mental health or mental illnesses before you talk and please try not to react with emotions. We are merely discussing a subject, a thought, an alternative. Why do you have react in such way to believe what I said is false and imaginary when you don't even have any evidence to back up what you said?

The point of practicing is to lessen our emotional reactions you know. It's important to take note of this.

To be therapist, one has to have at least a masters, and a psychologist is usually referred to someone with Phd or PsychD. I only have a bachelor in psychology, so I don't prescribe medications or conduct psychotherapy sessions. It's not my expertise. So you are making a lot of assumptions there my friend. I was merely offering a thought, an alternative to Varajyana since it is not a best fit for him right now. If you go to Amiabha for Dharma, and Amitabha sees a best fit for you is Varajyana, he will refer you to Varaj Buddha. The same here, we are offering a thought, an alternative. We are not saying he should not seek therapy or stop taking medications. Keep this in mind. And I am not here to cure him either. Not my expertise. But from my understanding, he can find psychology of Buddhism useful. So we are offering a thought.

Here is what I understand as Buddhist psychology:

LastLegend wrote:
starfish wrote:
This is very helpful to me. One struggle i have is with controlling anger and emotional upset, when it happens (and i feel sad or upset or angry only when my husband behaves in a way i feel is 'unfair' or 'rude' or '[insert offense here that may or may not even be legitamate]). My husband responds by walking away or ignoring me like a child having a tantrum, which sometimes enrages me even more, but sometimes its good and i'm left to recognize my ridicilous display of meaningless anger or sadness and that calms me down.
at the time i know i dont want to feel that way, and i know it will pass like a sickness if i only let it pass instead of feeding it... sometimes its hard to get out of that trap. what helps you when you feel upset?

I have thought before of writing down on a piece of paper words of advice to myself when i find myself upset, something like "you dont want to feel this way" or "just let it pass, you cant think right now" or "why are you choosing to be angry?"



I think you can learn how to process your thinking. If a situation happened, but you cannot processed thoroughly it will be stored in your alaya and will be brought to experience again when triggered. It is not so much to rationalize what's going on but to actually recognize the way you think actually brings you anger. Too often, we look at others for blame that they cause us to feel this way and this really enrages us. But we never look at our angry mind and the way we think. It is all attachment in disguised. When anger comes do not engage in it through thinking, look at it, and endure the suffering. So that in future we will correct the way we think that leads us to anger. Constantly pay attention to the mind at all time. Don't give up even if you feel very painful. Learn to endure the suffering.

What your husband did was not right. But we are not looking at his faults. That's his faults. Why should we feel angry for his faults? So right now we only look at our mind and figure out how the way we think and look at the world make us angry, and correct this fault in thinking. Then there is also fault in our behavior that needs to be corrected also.

Also recognize that the mind is very unstable. Words someone says can easy make you angry or happy. Like if someone is called overweight, she/he can get upset. You are very beautiful, you would feel excited. As you can see the mind is very unstable like a lake that is never tranquil, always disturbed by the external stimuli or triggers.

Don't give up. Continue to find ways to deal with anger. And over time your mind will grow stronger and more stable. It is a habit to react with anger.


What I had experienced was similar to schizophrenia in terms of symptoms.
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby username » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:18 pm

LastLegend wrote:
username wrote:Not true, as a friend of mine who suffered from severe schizophrenia came off medications after years a while back and is just fine now. If when in treatment he was getting help from you, I would advise him to sever all contact with you as good instincts and intuitions are vital. Secondly everything you desparatelty believe in is contingent and transient at best, and in essence imaginary and false. Finally many psychologist doctors, don't think you're one, end up as one because they're deep down in abject terror from their parental home culture and try to understand the mind (stupid impossibility) by using others as guinea pigs so they can ultimately fix themselves. This latter part is well known amongst many fresh doctors deciding on their specialty.


People who have severe mentally illnesses, namely Schizophrenia and who have been on medications for along time, and decide to stop medications and they will go through what is called "decompensation." Research this if you are interested.

I advise you to do research on the subject of mental health or mental illnesses before you talk and please try not to react with emotions. We are merely discussing a subject, a thought, an alternative. Why do you have react in such way to believe what I said is false and imaginary when you don't even have any evidence to back up what you said?

The point of practicing is to lessen our emotional reactions you know. It's important to take note of this.

To be therapist, one has to have at least a masters, and a psychologist is usually referred to someone with Phd or PsychD. I only have a bachelor in psychology, so I don't prescribe medications or conduct psychotherapy sessions. It's not my expertise. So you are making a lot of assumptions there my friend. I was merely offering a thought, an alternative to Varajyana since it is not a best fit for him right now. If you go to Amiabha for Dharma, and Amitabha sees a best fit for you is Varajyana, he will refer you to Varaj Buddha. The same here, we are offering a thought, an alternative. We are not saying he should not seek therapy or stop taking medications. Keep this in mind. And I am not here to cure him either. Not my expertise. But from my understanding, he can find psychology of Buddhism useful. So we are offering a thought.

Here is what I understand as Buddhist psychology:

LastLegend wrote:
starfish wrote:
This is very helpful to me. One struggle i have is with controlling anger and emotional upset, when it happens (and i feel sad or upset or angry only when my husband behaves in a way i feel is 'unfair' or 'rude' or '[insert offense here that may or may not even be legitamate]). My husband responds by walking away or ignoring me like a child having a tantrum, which sometimes enrages me even more, but sometimes its good and i'm left to recognize my ridicilous display of meaningless anger or sadness and that calms me down.
at the time i know i dont want to feel that way, and i know it will pass like a sickness if i only let it pass instead of feeding it... sometimes its hard to get out of that trap. what helps you when you feel upset?

I have thought before of writing down on a piece of paper words of advice to myself when i find myself upset, something like "you dont want to feel this way" or "just let it pass, you cant think right now" or "why are you choosing to be angry?"



I think you can learn how to process your thinking. If a situation happened, but you cannot processed thoroughly it will be stored in your alaya and will be brought to experience again when triggered. It is not so much to rationalize what's going on but to actually recognize the way you think actually brings you anger. Too often, we look at others for blame that they cause us to feel this way and this really enrages us. But we never look at our angry mind and the way we think. It is all attachment in disguised. When anger comes do not engage in it through thinking, look at it, and endure the suffering. So that in future we will correct the way we think that leads us to anger. Constantly pay attention to the mind at all time. Don't give up even if you feel very painful. Learn to endure the suffering.

What your husband did was not right. But we are not looking at his faults. That's his faults. Why should we feel angry for his faults? So right now we only look at our mind and figure out how the way we think and look at the world make us angry, and correct this fault in thinking. Then there is also fault in our behavior that needs to be corrected also.

Also recognize that the mind is very unstable. Words someone says can easy make you angry or happy. Like if someone is called overweight, she/he can get upset. You are very beautiful, you would feel excited. As you can see the mind is very unstable like a lake that is never tranquil, always disturbed by the external stimuli or triggers.

Don't give up. Continue to find ways to deal with anger. And over time your mind will grow stronger and more stable. It is a habit to react with anger.


What I had experienced was similar to schizophrenia in terms of symptoms.


I made three points in my last post and your replies are in complete error. Firstly you said:

I work with the mentally ill people who have severe mental illnesses, namely schizophrenia. And they are taking medications for the rest of their lives


And I gave you the example of my friend showing how your gross over generalization is a basic mistake. Secondly you don't need to tell me you are not a doctor as I told you that I deduced you are not one anyway. Thirdly what I was saying about contingencies and false shells and people in absolute desperation grasping at their concepts/rituals/belief/... (Buddhist or otherwise) and talking about them in error 24/7 was about the core and real essence of the path and the view of how absolutely everything in the cosmos really is and as taught by our masters, not your current belief of "Buddhist Psychology" whatever your personal pet theory is on that. As most peple easily understood. Even a basic understanding of emptiness will shatter all your constructs into smitherings never mind deeper insights. This is also a very ultra modern general scientific view too as opposed to the antique Victorian doctrines on soliditiy some need to cling to in sheer terror and need to force on others too for personal validation.

So apart from not having intuitions and instincts, very necessary for work in this field and in cognitives part of what is known as bottom-up semantics/intelligence and missing in top-down obsessives, you also do not understand very basic communications (even when written down) as just proven. So I would advise and urge you in the name of basic humanity (never mind Buddhism) to be much more careful and polite and gentle and empathic with the poor suffering patients who have been thrown into contact with you and not give dangerous cavalier off the cuff advice as you often do and in this thread too. Also please do not tell vulnerable patients to follow your made up simplistic theory of 'Buddhist Psychlogy' as you keep urging but to seek expert medical help by doctors and follow those instructions instead. Good luck to you and them.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby Dharmaswede » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:56 pm

Psychiatry and clinical psychology are not exact sciences. Not only treatment but sometimes also diagnosis might differ on the individual doctor, psychiatrist och psychologist offering it. What one medical authority considers schizophrenia, another might diagnose as paranoia, when one prescribes medication another might treat with therapy - and there are quite a few different therapies. Then, of course, every case is individual (sometimes uniquely and unexpedectly so!) and might deviate from the diagnostic manual. And the diagnostic manual (DSM) itself changes quite substantially from edition to edition... I am not saying psychiatry and clinical psychology are not sciences, because I feel they truly are, but they are not written-in-stone and "objective" in the same way as say, physics.

Best Regards,

Jens, psychologist
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby LastLegend » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:53 pm

username wrote:I made three points in my last post and your replies are in complete error. Firstly you said:

And I gave you the example of my friend showing how your gross over generalization is a basic mistake.


And I told you that you need to do research before you talk. Most people with severe Schizophrenia cannot get off medications because they will experience what is called "decompensation." Your friend case is not severe or rare. Once again, you need to do research. And if you have spare time, please visit assisted living facilities (state funded) and see these people for yourself.

Secondly you don't need to tell me you are not a doctor as I told you that I deduced you are not one anyway. Thirdly what I was saying about contingencies and false shells and people in absolute desperation grasping at their concepts/rituals/belief/... (Buddhist or otherwise) and talking about them in error 24/7 was about the core and real essence of the path and the view of how absolutely everything in the cosmos really is and as taught by our masters, not your current belief of "Buddhist Psychology" whatever your personal pet theory is on that.


This is your view. And I don't adhere to. If you understand western psychology at all, you will understand that Buddhism is actually psychology. Remember Buddhism is not just Tibetan Buddhism.

As most peple easily understood. Even a basic understanding of emptiness will shatter all your constructs into smitherings never mind deeper insights. This is also a very ultra modern general scientific view too as opposed to the antique Victorian doctrines on soliditiy some need to cling to in sheer terror and need to force on others too for personal validation.


Shatter my constructs? Show me.

So apart from not having intuitions and instincts, very necessary for work in this field and in cognitives part of what is known as bottom-up semantics/intelligence and missing in top-down obsessives, you also do not understand very basic communications (even when written down) as just proven.


I think you have been getting a little personal with me my friend. Refrain from emotional outburst please. You have been telling me what I am and what I am not. I am sure I was very clear in what I said, and here you are talking about me not understanding basic communications. What does this prove anything? I have responded to to what you said. Don't be thinking that what you said is absolute truth and when I responded to you, you reacted with emotions. Don't be upset when I don't adhere to your opinion. Who have problems with basic communications now? Staying civil in a discussion might be your communication issue.

Again, you are making a statement about my expertise. Don't you find this is a bit personal and has nothing to do with the actual discussion? Don't resort to personal remarks please. Try to attack my what I said and NOT me as a character in order to discredit me, therefore discredit what I said. Has it not been clear to you that I am not here to cure or treat people? Why are you making a statement about my expertise? For someone who seems to know nothing about the field.

Again, I was making a statement about my clients who have experienced severe mental illnesses, namely severe schizophrenia. These people have experienced mental illnesses since they were young, and now they are in their 40s-60s. It is a fact (not a generalization) that severe schizophrenia needs medications for the rest of their lives. The case you mentioned about your friend is either not severe or rare. There are similar symptoms to schizophrenia but not necessarily schizophrenia, e.g., substance abuse also experience symptoms that are similar to mental illnesses. Again, medications and therapy are one tools of many from the box...then you jumped to all many assumptions about me about my expertise. And here you are talking about communication basics.

So I would advise and urge you in the name of basic humanity (never mind Buddhism) to be much more careful and polite and gentle and empathic with the poor suffering patients who have been thrown into contact with you and not give dangerous cavalier off the cuff advice as you often do and in this thread too.


This is your opinion. I have already explained to you that I am not here to cure or treat people. It was merely a thought. Why are you acting like I am an evil doctor or therapist or something? Again you made a lot of assumptions about me. I have explained to you it is not my expertise. Why are still playing like you are helping the original poster when in reality you just want to be right? I find it personal that you think I am some sort of experimenter and even brought up examples of such people. Basically, that is indirectly attacking me or making a false statement about my expertise, and assuming that I am using therapy on people. Sorry we only operate within our expertise. I have already explained to you that I am offering a thought.

You need to stop reacting with emotions. It is merely a discussion. You act like I am a criminal or something.

Also please do not tell vulnerable patients to follow your made up simplistic theory of 'Buddhist Psychlogy' as you keep urging but to seek expert medical help by doctors and follow those instructions instead. Good luck to you and them.


You are making a lot of assumptions about what I do. I think it is personal and straying off from the actual discussion.

Let me recap:

1) I was merely offering a thought, an alternative to Vajrayana because it might not be the best fit for Vajrayana but he can still benefit from the psychology of Buddhism or Buddhist teachings. You don't have to agree with me. It's merely a thought. But don't get personal. I was not offering therapy, or claiming that I do. By you making assumptions about my career expertise or what I do is bit personal and off topic.

2)We are not denying therapy or medications. But these are only tools and many tools can be employed. So essentially, the original poster can benefit from the psychology of Buddhism or Buddhist teachings in combination with western psychology or therapy and medications. You don't have to agree with this 'Buddhist psychology,' but remember Vajrayana is NOT the only form of Buddhism out there. Buddhist teachings are psychology by definition-studying the mind, looking at the mind, and behavior. An advanced form of psychology actually.Take introduction to psychology, and you will understand. So if you don't know what you are talking about, please do research before you speak.

3) So what are talking about all these treatments and me employing psuedo therapy? Come one man, I have been very clear with what I said. Once again. I am not here to cure him or to treat him. Merely offering a thought. Okay. Hard to grasp?

Lastly, if you cannot control your emotions and stay civil, don't respond anymore.
Last edited by LastLegend on Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:59 pm, edited 16 times in total.
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby LastLegend » Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:57 pm

Dharmaswede wrote:Psychiatry and clinical psychology are not exact sciences. Not only treatment but sometimes also diagnosis might differ on the individual doctor, psychiatrist och psychologist offering it. What one medical authority considers schizophrenia, another might diagnose as paranoia, when one prescribes medication another might treat with therapy - and there are quite a few different therapies. Then, of course, every case is individual (sometimes uniquely and unexpedectly so!) and might deviate from the diagnostic manual. And the diagnostic manual (DSM) itself changes quite substantially from edition to edition... I am not saying psychiatry and clinical psychology are not sciences, because I feel they truly are, but they are not written-in-stone and "objective" in the same way as say, physics.

Best Regards,

Jens, psychologist


Thank you.
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby username » Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:51 pm

LastLegend wrote:
username wrote:I made three points in my last post and your replies are in complete error. Firstly you said:

And I gave you the example of my friend showing how your gross over generalization is a basic mistake.


And I told you that you need to do research before you talk. Most people with severe Schizophrenia cannot get off medications because they will experience what is called "decompensation." Your friend case is not severe or just a rare case. Once again, you need to do research. And if you have spare time, please visit assisted living facilities (state funded) and see these people for yourself.

Secondly you don't need to tell me you are not a doctor as I told you that I deduced you are not one anyway. Thirdly what I was saying about contingencies and false shells and people in absolute desperation grasping at their concepts/rituals/belief/... (Buddhist or otherwise) and talking about them in error 24/7 was about the core and real essence of the path and the view of how absolutely everything in the cosmos really is and as taught by our masters, not your current belief of "Buddhist Psychology" whatever your personal pet theory is on that.


This is your view. And I don't adhere to. If you understand western psychology at all, you will understand that Buddhism is actually psychology. Remember Buddhism is not just Tibetan Buddhism.

As most peple easily understood. Even a basic understanding of emptiness will shatter all your constructs into smitherings never mind deeper insights. This is also a very ultra modern general scientific view too as opposed to the antique Victorian doctrines on soliditiy some need to cling to in sheer terror and need to force on others too for personal validation.


Shatter my constructs? Show me.

So apart from not having intuitions and instincts, very necessary for work in this field and in cognitives part of what is known as bottom-up semantics/intelligence and missing in top-down obsessives, you also do not understand very basic communications (even when written down) as just proven.


I think you have been getting a little personal with me my friend. Refrain from emotional outburst please. You have been telling me what I am and what I am not. I am sure I was very clear in what I said, and here you are talking about me not understanding basic communications. What does this prove anything? I have responded to to what you said. Don't be thinking that what you said is absolute truth and when I responded to you, you reacted with emotions. Don't be upset when I don't adhere to your opinion. Who have problems with basic communications now? Staying civil in a discussion might be your communication issue.

Again, you are making a statement about my expertise. Don't you find this is a bit personal and has nothing to do with the actual discussion? Don't resort to personal remarks please. Try to attack my what I said and NOT me as a character in order to discredit me, therefore discredit what I said. Has it not been clear to you that I am not here to cure or treat people? Why are you making a statement about my expertise? For someone who seems to know nothing about the field.

So I would advise and urge you in the name of basic humanity (never mind Buddhism) to be much more careful and polite and gentle and empathic with the poor suffering patients who have been thrown into contact with you and not give dangerous cavalier off the cuff advice as you often do and in this thread too.


This is your opinion. I have already explained to you that I am not here to cure or treat people. It was merely a thought. Why are you acting like I am an evil doctor or therapist or something? Again you made a lot of assumptions about me. I have explained to you it is not my expertise. Why are still playing like you are helping the original poster when in reality you just want to be right? I find it personal that you think I am some sort of experimenter and even brought up examples of such people. Basically, that is indirectly attacking me or making a false statement about my expertise, and assuming that I am using therapy on people. Sorry we only operate within our expertise. I have already explained to you that I am offering a thought.

You need to stop reacting with emotions. It is merely a discussion. You act like I am a criminal or something.

Also please do not tell vulnerable patients to follow your made up simplistic theory of 'Buddhist Psychlogy' as you keep urging but to seek expert medical help by doctors and follow those instructions instead. Good luck to you and them.


You are making a lot of assumptions about what I do. I think it is personal and straying off from the actual discussion.

Let me recap:

1) I was merely offering a thought, an alternative to Vajrayana because it might not be the best fit for Vajrayana but he can still benefit from the psychology of Buddhism or Buddhist teachings. You don't have to agree with me. It's merely a thought. But don't get personal. I was not offering therapy, or claiming that I do. By you making assumptions about my career expertise or what I do is bit personal and off topic.

2)We are not denying therapy or medications. But these are only tools and many tools can be employed. So essentially, the original poster can benefit from the psychology of Buddhism or Buddhist teachings in combination with western psychology or therapy and medications. You don't have to agree with this 'Buddhist psychology,' but remember Vajrayana is NOT the only form of Buddhism out there. Buddhist teachings are psychology by definition-studying the mind, looking at the mind, and behavior. An advanced form of psychology actually.Take introduction to psychology, and you will understand. So if you don't know what you are talking about, please do research before you speak.

3) So what are talking about all these treatments and me employing psuedo therapy? Come one man, I have been very clear with what I said. Once again. I am not here to cure him or to treat him. Merely offering a thought. Okay. Hard to grasp?

Lastly, if you cannot control your emotions and stay civil, don't respond anymore.


You made a global rule about Schizophrenia sufferers being on medication for life (which you condemned earlier in favor of your pet theory on 'Buddhist Psychology' whatever that is) and stuck with it and then when pointed out your error changed it to 'some' and pretend as though nothing has changed! This is not honest debate. The rest of my points stand. I just read your first paragraph and honestly do not have time to read your long post and other essays, nor anyone else's, specially as it is not conforming to ethical standards of debate I just proved. I advise you to be kinder and gentler and listen carefully to patients you are on work placement or whatever scheme you are on with and not force your pet theory you call 'Buddhist Psychology' on them and attack medication/therapy or whatever directives as suggested by qualified doctors to the patients with a sort of what I can only describe as unsympathetic if not ruthless behavior, my honest opinion, on patients. Dismissing the medication/therapy/directives of a qualified doctor to patients, specially in acute cases, either completely or as secondary to your pet theories as you have done here is not only cruel but also unethical and actualy not legal.
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby LastLegend » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:07 pm

LastLegend: Again, I was making a statement about my clients who have experienced severe mental illnesses, namely severe schizophrenia. These people have experienced mental illnesses since they were young, and now they are in their 40s-60s. It is a fact (not a generalization) that severe schizophrenia needs medications for the rest of their lives. The case you mentioned about your friend is either not severe or rare. There are similar symptoms to schizophrenia but not necessarily schizophrenia, e.g., substance abuse also experience symptoms that are similar to mental illnesses. Again, medications and therapy are one tools of many from the box...then you jumped to all many assumptions about me about my expertise. And here you are talking about communication basics.



You made a global rule about Schizophrenia sufferers being on medication for life (which you condemned earlier in favor of your pet theory on 'Buddhist Psychology' whatever that is) and stuck with it and then when pointed out your error changed it to 'some' and pretend as though nothing has changed!


You don't know anything about the field. Why do you want to be right? Refer to what Dharmaswede said. What you thought to be schizophrenia might not turn out to be so. Substance abuse also experience indistinguishable symptoms from mental illnesses. So the severe schizophrenia in generally stay on medications for the rest of their lives. With only a few exceptions and considered rare. Misdiagnoses in psychiatry is very common. If you go to a psychiatrist, expect a diagnose when you walk out of his/her office.

And Buddhism by definition is psychology. Do you even know what psychology is?

This is not honest debate. The rest of my points stand. I just read your first paragraph and honestly do not have time to read your long post and other essays, nor anyone else's, specially as it is not conforming to ethical standards of debate I just proved.


This is your opinion.

I advise you to be kinder and gentler and listen carefully to patients you are on work placement or whatever scheme you are on with and not force your pet theory you call 'Buddhist Psychology' on them and attack medication/therapy or whatever directives as suggested by qualified doctors to the patients with a sort of what I can only describe as unsympathetic if no ruthless behavior, my honest opinion, on patients. Dismissing the medication/therapy/directives of a qualified doctor to patients, specially in acute cases, either completely or as secondary to your pet theories as you have done here is not only cruel but also unethical and actualy not legal.


Why are still repeating the same crap when I have been very clear with you? Do you even know what I do for you to give such advice?

You have been ignoring what I said completely and repeating the same old crap. You even ignore what Dharmaswede said who happened to be psychologist. What the heck is your problem?

Stop playing like you are trying to help the original poster when you are helping yourself in this case to be right when you don't even know what you are talking about.

Talking about dishonest.

And your points don't stick, wet mud sorry.
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby username » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:24 pm

LastLegend wrote:
You made a global rule about Schizophrenia sufferers being on medication for life (which you condemned earlier in favor of your pet theory on 'Buddhist Psychology' whatever that is) and stuck with it and then when pointed out your error changed it to 'some' and pretend as though nothing has changed!


You don't know anything about the field. Why do you want to be right? Refer to what Dharmaswede said. What you thought to be schizophrenia might not turn out to be so. Substance abuse also experience indistinguishable symptoms from mental illnesses. So the severe schizophrenia in generally stay on medications for the rest of their lives. With only a few exceptions and considered rare.

And Buddhism by definition is psychology. Do you even know what psychology is?

This is not honest debate. The rest of my points stand. I just read your first paragraph and honestly do not have time to read your long post and other essays, nor anyone else's, specially as it is not conforming to ethical standards of debate I just proved.


This is your opinion.

I advise you to be kinder and gentler and listen carefully to patients you are on work placement or whatever scheme you are on with and not force your pet theory you call 'Buddhist Psychology' on them and attack medication/therapy or whatever directives as suggested by qualified doctors to the patients with a sort of what I can only describe as unsympathetic if no ruthless behavior, my honest opinion, on patients. Dismissing the medication/therapy/directives of a qualified doctor to patients, specially in acute cases, either completely or as secondary to your pet theories as you have done here is not only cruel but also unethical and actualy not legal.


Why are still repeating the same crap when I have been very clear with you? Do you even know what I do for you to give such advice?

You have been ignoring what I said completely and repeating the same old crap. You even ignore what Dharmaswede said who happened to be psychologist. What the heck is your problem?

Stop playing like you are trying to help the original poster when you are helping yourself in this case to be right when you don't even know what you are talking about.


Hi Last Legend,
I hope you are well. Actually you are the one who generalized all Schizophrenia sufferers as one category and then issued a global rule of medication for life which you attacked too as inferior to your pet theory. So her post was against over generalization of diagnosis. I am surprised you do not see these basic communication points even in black and white and in writing ready for double/triple check never mind when oral. Further on her point, some modern science theories do not see boundaries even amongst species as each specimen is different and boundaries blur. But this is over your head and off topic. I just saw a few rude words in your last post. I hope you keep calmer with vulnerable patients you are helping with. Our actions have reactions according to karma and I just hope you can calm down and restrain yourself when they upset you. It might be good to talk to your therapist about advising patients with your little personal theory at the expense of what has been prescribed for them. See what he/she says? Anyway just trying to help other people you are in contact with specially as many of them might be helpless? I wish you and them all the best in the world my friend. Have a good weekened. :smile:
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby LastLegend » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:28 pm

username wrote:
LastLegend wrote:
You made a global rule about Schizophrenia sufferers being on medication for life (which you condemned earlier in favor of your pet theory on 'Buddhist Psychology' whatever that is) and stuck with it and then when pointed out your error changed it to 'some' and pretend as though nothing has changed!


You don't know anything about the field. Why do you want to be right? Refer to what Dharmaswede said. What you thought to be schizophrenia might not turn out to be so. Substance abuse also experience indistinguishable symptoms from mental illnesses. So the severe schizophrenia in generally stay on medications for the rest of their lives. With only a few exceptions and considered rare.

And Buddhism by definition is psychology. Do you even know what psychology is?

This is not honest debate. The rest of my points stand. I just read your first paragraph and honestly do not have time to read your long post and other essays, nor anyone else's, specially as it is not conforming to ethical standards of debate I just proved.


This is your opinion.

I advise you to be kinder and gentler and listen carefully to patients you are on work placement or whatever scheme you are on with and not force your pet theory you call 'Buddhist Psychology' on them and attack medication/therapy or whatever directives as suggested by qualified doctors to the patients with a sort of what I can only describe as unsympathetic if no ruthless behavior, my honest opinion, on patients. Dismissing the medication/therapy/directives of a qualified doctor to patients, specially in acute cases, either completely or as secondary to your pet theories as you have done here is not only cruel but also unethical and actualy not legal.


Why are still repeating the same crap when I have been very clear with you? Do you even know what I do for you to give such advice?

You have been ignoring what I said completely and repeating the same old crap. You even ignore what Dharmaswede said who happened to be psychologist. What the heck is your problem?

Stop playing like you are trying to help the original poster when you are helping yourself in this case to be right when you don't even know what you are talking about.


Hi Last Legend,
I hope you are well. Actually you are the one who generalized all Schizophrenia sufferers as one category and then issued a global rule of medication for life which you attacked too as inferior to your pet theory. So her post was against over generalization of diagnosis. I am surprised you do not see these basic communication points in writing. Further on her point, some modern science theories do not see boundaries even amongst species as each specimen is different and boundaries blur. But this is over your head and off topic. I just saw a few rude words in your last post. I hope you keep calmer with vulnerable patients you are helping with. Our actions have reactions according to karma and I just hope you can calm down and restrain yourself when they upset you. It might be good to talk to your therapist about advising patients with your little personal theory at the expense of what has been prescribed for them. See what he/she says? Anyway just trying to help other people you are in contact with specially as many of them might be helpless? I wish you and them all the best in the world my friend. Have a good weekened. :smile:


Ok you win, mr. right and mr. I-am-smarter-than-you-are, and mr. reverse psychology.
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby username » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:34 pm

LastLegend wrote:Ok you win, mr. right and mr. I-am-smarter-than-you-are, and mr. reverse psychology.


You have a great capacity for kindness, best wishes. :smile:
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby Dechen Norbu » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:36 pm

Last Legend, having a B. degree in Psychology should be enough for you to understand that you are not qualified to give advice to our friend GT, much less over an internet forum. He seems to be having trouble with his practice. He also seems to be open to the possibility of giving a chance to a new doctor. This is very important.

For him, right now and under the apparent circumstances, the best thing he can do is taking a break from pushing himself to practice and see a qualified mental health professional. As username so well said, that is his Dharma now. I happen to agree. Stop pushing your agenda directly or indirectly, even if you mean well. You haven't said it explicitly, but as that's your usual mantra.... Let me tell you directly: if Pure Land was all there was to Buddhism, I wouldn't be a Buddhist. Just for you to see as it doesn't resonate with everyone. It's not that GT needs to change of Buddhist school. He needs to see a qualified therapist. Got it? Pure Land or whatever school of Buddhism you may think of are not forms of therapy. Saying that is irresponsible when you deal with someone experiencing GT's situation.

I would never agree that Buddhism could be considered inside the boundaries of Psychology (or vice-versa), at least not from a professional understanding of it. Perhaps stretching the limits of what is Psychology in a very informal way could lead to a consideration of what you claim, establish a few parallelisms and similarities, but in the present context it's just not adequate. You either don't know very well what is Buddhism or Psychology is a science you don't know much about. Or both in the worst case. We can discuss this elsewhere if you want, but let's avoid doing it in this thread. There's been enough unnecessary noise already and I'm sure that is not helpful at all for GT.

Best wishes.
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Re: Sad, sob story

Postby LastLegend » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:43 pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:Last Legend, having a B. degree in Psychology should be enough for you to understand that you are not qualified to give advice to our friend GT, much less over an internet forum. He seems to be having trouble with his practice. He also seems to be open to the possibility of giving a chance to a new doctor. This is very important.

For him, right now and under the apparent circumstances, the best thing he can do is taking a break from pushing himself to practice and see a qualified mental health professional. As username so well said, that is his Dharma now. I happen to agree. Stop pushing your agenda directly or indirectly, even if you mean well. You haven't said it explicitly, but as that's your usual mantra.... Let me tell you directly: if Pure Land was all there was to Buddhism, I wouldn't be a Buddhist. Just for you to see as it doesn't resonate with everyone. It's not that GT needs to change of Buddhist school. He needs to see a qualified therapist. Got it? Pure Land or whatever school of Buddhism you may think of are not forms of therapy. Saying that is irresponsible when you deal with someone experiencing GT's situation.

I would never agree that Buddhism could be considered inside the boundaries of Psychology (or vice-versa), at least not from a professional understanding of it. Perhaps stretching the limits of what is Psychology in a very informal way could lead to a consideration of what you claim, establish a few parallelisms and similarities, but in the present context it's just not adequate. You either don't know very well what is Buddhism or Psychology is a science you don't know much about. Or both in the worst case. We can discuss this elsewhere if you want, but let's avoid doing it in this thread. There's been enough unnecessary noise already and I'm sure that is not helpful at all for GT.

Best wishes.


I was very clear in what I said. Please re-read all the discussions. And I am pushing him? Tibetan is not the only form of Buddhism out there. If someone is best fit for Tibetan Buddhism, I will refer that person to Tibetan Buddhism. And if that person is not best fit for Tibetan Buddhism, refer him/her to a different form, does not have to be Pure Land. You want what the best for the person, not for your own benefits.

And please if you don't know what you are talking about do research. Why are you babbling?

But thank you for your opinion.
Last edited by LastLegend on Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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