Thoughts

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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:31 pm

Sönam wrote:
Namdrol wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:whatever appears is absent in reality.
What in tarnations is a super matrix? Is he translating a Tibetan term here?


He is translating klong chen i.e. great space.


"... according to the rubric of mind, matrix and secret precept.", and also "the three series of Dzogchen instruction (Mind, Matrix and Secret Precept)

And there it is the "space serie"

Sönam



Tashi delek,

Thought that one never can add new ideas to Dzogchen, so Matrix is never anywhere written.

- So what was the original idea / word of matrix in Tibetan?
- What is/was the reason to make a change?

A new form of self experience?

This has a certain name if a Dzogchen Master makes interpretations about a certain kind of self-experience, and gives it a name....
Forgot this name.


Best wishes
KY
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Pema Rigdzin » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:55 am

KY,

As Namdrol already said, Low has chosen to translate the Tibetan word "long" as "matrix" instead of the usual "space." It really is as simple as that. No new ideas, except about which English word he thinks best conveys what the Tibetan does. What aren't you getting?
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:15 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:KY,

As Namdrol already said, Low has chosen to translate the Tibetan word "long" as "matrix" instead of the usual "space." It really is as simple as that. No new ideas, except about which English word he thinks best conveys what the Tibetan does. What aren't you getting?



Tashi delek,

Thanks for the reply.

We know also that Rigpa has many"home made" translations, which are sometimes very confusing to others and so we have long here as matrix.
Well for me personal do i treat Dzogchen in a conventional way and for me there is no need for new words whereas in English etc.

I am fine with the explanations of the old stamp school where there is no need for alternatives and self-experiences which are explained as something better, clearer etc.

I am aware of many additions to Dzogchen words which are not like that explained in the Dzogchen texts and one very famous example would be Rigpa as awareness and knowledge....................

Mutsog Marro
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jul 30, 2011 12:32 pm

So basically he is talking about the dharmadhatu?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:09 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:So basically he is talking about the dharmadhatu?
:namaste:



Dharmdhātu does not mean space, and klong does not mean dharmadhātu. One of the key features of klong sde is working with space, as opposed to light ala thögal. However, in klong sde they also take about the nine spaces i.e. the space of the view, the meditation, conduct, samaya and so on. One of our contributors, Sten Anspell, did a thesis on klong sde that is very interesting.

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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jul 30, 2011 1:54 pm

I have seen dhatu translated as "matrix" in another text (can't remember where) like "the matrix of reality", I have also seen dharmadhatu defined as the space from which all phenomena manifest, so this is the angle from where my question arises and anyway the quote says:
...in the super-matrix of pure mind that is like space...
which further confused me.
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is the Tibetan term for dharmadhatu?
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:16 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I have seen dhatu translated as "matrix" in another text (can't remember where) like "the matrix of reality", I have also seen dharmadhatu defined as the space from which all phenomena manifest, so this is the angle from where my question arises and anyway the quote says:
...in the super-matrix of pure mind that is like space...
which further confused me.
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is the Tibetan term for dharmadhatu?
:namaste:


Hi Greg:

dharmadhātu is chos dbyings or chos kyi dbyings.

In tibetan, dbyings can mean "space". But dhātu can never mean space. Dhātu, in Sanskrit, means "a mine" or "a source".

Some western translators naively translate "dbyings" as space because dbyings can have that connotation in Tibetan.

But chos kyi dbyings is never defined in Tibetan by Tibetan masters as the "space of phenomena".

It is often defined as a chos kyi 'byung gnas i.e. a source of phenomena however. One notable example of someone who gives "a source of phenomena" for dharmadhātu would be Longchenpa in the chos dyings mdzod.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Sat Jul 30, 2011 3:20 pm

Thank you muchly!
:namaste:
"When one is not in accord with the true view
Meditation and conduct become delusion,
One will not attain the real result
One will be like a blind man who has no eyes."
Naropa - Summary of the View from The Eight Doha Treasures
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:40 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:I have seen dhatu translated as "matrix" in another text (can't remember where) like "the matrix of reality", I have also seen dharmadhatu defined as the space from which all phenomena manifest, so this is the angle from where my question arises and anyway the quote says:
...in the super-matrix of pure mind that is like space...
which further confused me.
Excuse my ignorance but what exactly is the Tibetan term for dharmadhatu?
:namaste:



This is probably something like byang chub sems kyi klong chen i.e. "the great space of bodhicitta..." i.e. bodhicitta ala Dzogchen terminology.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:09 pm

thigle wrote:This is a good place, to share something about buddhism muni. Or is there any 'attachment' on 'dzogchen'?

It is not easy to be easy. Dzogchen is easy. But to practice Dzogchen, is not easy. Because, Dzogchen is no practice, Dzogchen is your life. It is not a practice on one side and a practitioner on the other side. When Dzogchen is a 'practice', its not easy for the practitioner to-be-easy. To-be-easy is beyond meditation or non-meditation. To-be-easy means: Dzogchen. To-be-easy transcends subject and object. To-be-easy means, whetever appears, it is perfect as-it-is. You don't need to 'practice' anything, but you can practice, because everything is-as-it-is.

All we must learn, is to be easy. And this is hard for us. When there is no distinction between such things like your mind or the world, because it doesn't matter, you are very easy. Then all is a mandala.

When some people said, Dzogchen is not easy, they tell the people lies. When they said, Dzogchen is not easy, they promote a wrong view, and this wrong view implicated such things as 'effort', 'practice', 'to-do-something-special', and stuff. But this is not the Dzogchen view. This is vipassana. When you say, Dzogchen is easy, the pupil is easy. That's near on the 'view'. When you say to people, Dzogchen is subtle, you make a mistake: "Oh, it's subtle. When you show me the 'view', then this 'view' is very subtle! I must look good, right? It's soooo subtle, to difference... ma, bu and tsal. I must look goooood. And I must make a difference. Because, it's 'subtle'... . This is not Dzogchen. It is much better, you promote:

How your mental condition is, is your mental condition. If you think it's ok. If you don't think, it's ok. If you are angry, it's ok. So, do this: How your mental condition is, is your mental condition. Let everything as it is. Now it's clear, everything is as it is. So- you can let go the activity of let-go. Come back, as you are before this activity. Be Natural.

Now, all is self-clear. It is now self-clear, that everything has 'no-core'. Everything is a 'appearance'. And that, through which you know that everything has 'no-core', is the same like the 'no-core'. But that, 'trough-you-know', is not a 'knowing' through a conditional consciousness. It is 'bu', the son, the not-conditional awareness, which is not in any way distinct from 'ma', the mother, the 'no-core'. so, everything is a expression of this 'union'.

But- you don't think that. You do not search for ma, bu and tsal. It 'comes-from-itself'. This is not vipassana and stuff. Everything what appears now, is good-as-it-is. Because, nothing has a 'core'. Everything appears, like the picture on a mirror. The mirror himself is not attached from the picture. All is 'open' now- everything can appear. Thoughts or no thoughts, it doesn't matter.

This is the same, like hishiryō in Soto-Zen, in the practice of Zazen. And this is also like 'Jin' in Shin. Pure, natural, easy, direct, beyond practice or non-practice. Dzogchen has nothing to do with 'search-for-a-thought-see-it-has-no-color-or-shape-so-now-rest-in-this'. This is much more like cittamatra-view, not the dzogchen-view. It's a good practice for preliminarys, but not 'the-view'. You come to this view, only through mengagde. only in mengagde, you have lhun-grub. Not in semde, not in longde. Semde or longde are for people, who wanna search for anything. So it's good to have these series. But, what is the point, last but not least?

It is, there is nothing to find. And that's what the pupil have to learn. Nothing to find, so: all is-as-it-is. There is nothing to find, or to do. So GIVE UP to searching or finding. Give up, and all is-as-it-is. Now, you don't must let-all-as-it-is. When you give up, and all is now as it is, it is naturally as-it-is. Without YOU must 'do this'. But if you cant 'give-up', then let-all-as-it-is. Then give up your 'let'.

In the context of shin-buddhism, a (in tibetan terms, 'higher' view, because it's much more easier (look at bible, Lukas 14:11 *lol*) the life himself learn you to 'give up'. shin is a very direct, imho one of the most direct 'ways' (it's not realy a way) to a open dharmakaya. But most of the people i know, this 'way' is to easy. so easy, it's not realy a 'way'. But this people want it not-easy, because they are not-easy-people. And this is ok. So you can see, it's easy.

If nobody belief what i write here in this text with my broken english- please: Don't believe me!. It's ok. How your mental condition is, is your mental condition. You can do this now (active), and then 'give up', or you simply: 'don't belief me'! Now, -"you-don't-belief-me"- is like a picture in the mirror. Now it's clear: It is ok! You. Me. Everything. But you do not 'think' that. It is spontaneously, self-open, not a construct form your conditioned consciousness. This is bodhichitta, which is the natural state.

So, what is the big secret in Dzogchen? Right my friend, there is no secret. Dzogchen is no secret, Dzogchen is easy. Dzogchen do not need a 'protection' or a 'protector'. Not from you and you or you and you or tantric magic. The tibetan secret about Dzogchen is: Dzochen has no secret. They wanna bind you. Mara wanna bind you. So, Dzogchen is a secret and must be protected. Bad karma für the tibetans. But dzogchen is great!

Thx.

Namu Amida Butsu


I read here about not good Tibetans, Tibetan Buddhism as a problem. Guru...
First of all is seeing by conditioned concepts/ frustration, and so one does't see what there really is! Buddha didn't teach to spit generously in hatred on phenomena what seems to rise as disturbance. If "the tibetans" are conditioned appearing dog shit on your shoes, i cannot clean this. We can only do that ourselves.
In science today is the interactive conditioning by memory, expectations, all kinds of backgrounds, circumstances and so on observed by brain analysis. not the things are the problem but grasping.

Buddhists talk about impermanence, dependence; how all appears; interactive network or playful dance in the mirror. The mirror is not durty by what we write neither by sweet words...like by the coming and going reflections in the lake.

To cut through that interactive dream, a Guru (not caught in the play of phenomena) can help us.

A wild animal in a trap is going to defend (by fear and so agression) its being and try to bite in the hands who want to liberate him. He harms its being even stronger, get stronger entangled in the trap. So one can be entangled and obscured, trusting only concepts, mockery about a "Guru".

Indeed we must be careful, it is our own ripen mind who must recognize the genuine Guru.
Hatred is suffering dream, it is not our nature.
A thought, need not to be pinned, not to fixated, just passing..
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:30 am

add this about Guru;

Taking the result as the path; words are coming from "the very heart. Whatever the "Guru" says, if it comes right from the heart" (nondual, also not liking that one, shooting the other) there is no intent to prove its' being, all energy of nonaction (so called) is as blessing all beings, who are ready to recieve, to realise how nature is. Emaho. _/\_

Right from the heart of Dzogchen. Oh no, it is not said the heart, not good not good...keep you on the words in the Pali/Sanscrit...A Guru talks right from the heart, not misleading us by taking word-display of scripts ( important TOOL) as "truth", while that play of word-phenomena is free to come and to go.

Then there are concepts what bind us, and words cutting through temporary clouds, to see the shining warm wisdom.

Seeing other who are wrong is caught in dream, the wrong ones are only temporary, as when a fortunate one sees clear; there is only compassion. Through that is their teaching...from the heart. So is there said by Bodhichitta.

just to say: words are meant as tool for medicine or poison.

p.s there are stories in india and so on about people calling themselves Guru while just misusing people for whatever worldly grasping. These are maybe the base of the allergy for Guru. An example how words' meaning can be very conditioned.

Not possesing any knowledge, only very small understanding by what is told by genuine Gurus.
:anjali:
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Pero » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:56 pm

Namdrol wrote:One of our contributors, Sten Anspell, did a thesis on klong sde that is very interesting.


Do you know where it's possible to obtain this? I could only find a Norwegian library that you can borrow from which doesn't help me obviously hehe.
Also, who is Sten Anspel here if it's not a secret (and assuming you meant contributors on Dharma Wheel)?
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:53 pm

Pero wrote:
Namdrol wrote:One of our contributors, Sten Anspell, did a thesis on klong sde that is very interesting.


Do you know where it's possible to obtain this? I could only find a Norwegian library that you can borrow from which doesn't help me obviously hehe.
Also, who is Sten Anspel here if it's not a secret (and assuming you meant contributors on Dharma Wheel)?



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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Though there are infinite liberating gateways of Dharma,
there are none not included in the dimension of the knowledge of the Great Perfection.

-- Buddha Samantabhadri
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