Democracy in the country that gave birth to democracy

[gregkavarnos]

A short video documentary on the attempt by the Greek people to resuscitate the corpse of democracy in the country that brought democracy to the world.

English voice over and subtitles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE3R1BQ ... r_embedded


(From sunny Greece!)

[ronnewmexico]

This hits at it a bit....the tendency of american media is to focus only on american, and all in relationship to that. Media would call that giving them what they want. I would call that surpression with intention.

The same pattern of hits to retirements to benefits to unions to cares of varying sorts is prelevent in many many countries right now.
The same response to the same issue which was a being caused from the financials and certain deregulations and modifications to what existed by new vehicles creation..


Iceland....peoples should study iceland and their peoples response to this very same thing. Early on in this crisis...the same problems the same offered solutions by the same corpratested democracies...but in the end the peoples saying essentially...screw you...eat your debt do not eat us. And some governmental officials and bankers going to jail doing real time.

They seem to be doing quite fine near as I can tell Iceland is. Their economy ruined by this financial debacle but now improving.....

Won't here to much about iceland in greece nor any other country suffering right now is my guess.....tell me no.
Geeze..I hope this is well written(inside joke)

[gregkavarnos]

Actually there is quite a bit of information regarding iceland here in Greece. We (thankfully) still have a large independent media network plus the state owned tv stations actually have a few decent journalists working for them. A few. But I am sure the "crisis" will deal them a death blow (too).

[ronnewmexico]

Well good then...the choice is clear. Unfortunately since iceland cannot be seen from outside our front door noone knows about it here and america is finished as far as this is concerned. Social security medicare all the rest...is being chipped away steadily.
Charles Dickins england is around the corner for us....so sad. To whit will come more economic stagnation since the poor and middle class by virtue of numbers are the largest consumers by far. Cut the taxes on the rich 100% they still can not buy what the millions do.

so america is finished it is just a waiting game to see how long the crumble.
Obama is coopted as is the democratic party the opposition on paper at least..oh well corrupt end to a corrupt thing.

that country that gave birth to democracy thing...native americans back in the day had democracies,and they considered themselves nations. We're talking 8000 years of history I'd say. So the giving birth thing.....not so sure about that.

[Indrajala]

Situations like this call for widespread civil disobedience.

[ronnewmexico]

This in america...B of A one of those most responsible for the debacle is now donating foreclosed houses and demolishing them in the interest of removing houses from the market......

ya gotta wonder but no one does.....http://finance.yahoo.com/news/BofA-Donates-Then-Demolishes-bloomberg-946456059.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=5&asset=&ccode=

they do this to get a tax write off....so in essence the corporate government is doing this....free homes to homeless....no way

[Indrajala]

This in america...B of A one of those most responsible for the debacle is now donating foreclosed houses and demolishing them in the interest of removing houses from the market......

ya gotta wonder but no one does.....http://finance.yahoo.com/news/BofA-Donates-Then-Demolishes-bloomberg-946456059.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=5&asset=&ccode=

they do this to get a tax write off....so in essence the corporate government is doing this....free homes to homeless....no way

In some countries all the homeless people would collectively say to hell with the law and authorities and in mass move into countless perfectly good foreclosed home.

My Indian friend recently pointed out something quite relevant to me: people in western countries have a strong sense of "rule of law". It really prevents people from collectively doing what is appropriate. If you have a bunch of empty houses and many many homeless families with children, then the families should en mass move into those homes and refuse to leave.

[ronnewmexico]

That works in some places...In the US they bring in the goons state local or federal depending upon size and scope and push everyone out by force arresting those in charge putting them where they can't do any trouble. And the media...will take the side of the goons and portray anyone squatting as heinous lawbreakers.

One person just today who bid on a governmental contract to mine illegally even though many environmental groups offered to pay the price for the bid to save the area from drilling and the bid itself was declared illegal....received 2 years prison for the offense.

America..there is not a bit of hope....greece..maybe.

[Indrajala]

That works in some places...In the US they bring in the goons state local or federal depending upon size and scope and push everyone out by force arresting those in charge putting them where they can't do any trouble. And the media...will take the side of the goons and portray anyone squatting as heinous lawbreakers.

One person just today who bid on a governmental contract to mine illegally even though many environmental groups offered to pay the price for the bid to save the area from drilling and the bid itself was declared illegal....received 2 years prison for the offense.

America..there is not a bit of hope....greece..maybe.

I guess I just have this Ghandian vision where if enough people disobey the law they can't enforce it.

Watch from 2:19.

The General said - "You don't think we're just going to walk out of India!"

Gandhi replied - "Yes. In the end, you will walk out. Because 100,000 Englishmen simply cannot control 350 million Indians, if those Indians refuse to cooperate."

Peaceful non-violent civil disobedience in the optimal way to go, especially in the case of a corrupt government. The goons will break down and stop striking innocents if those innocents never strike or return a blow.

[ronnewmexico]

I have been involved in personal responses to things such as these years ago in the US and they were effective.

Nowadays..I really think the general attitude has changed or something. It's my personal opinion with the freedom of information act and the releases related to south american iran and other places.... anyone who has a bit of a brain now knows america was corrupt and is corrupt...I think that knowledge has erroded their morality as a people. They now must know they are bad and act accordingly...each person for himself...but that's just my guess.

So such a response in america...even if they did such it would be quashed in the media as were most of the antiwar demonstrations prior to the war in iraq...deminished called less than they were.
This nation has a long history of peacful action mainly on the labor front being quashed and then legislation passed to support the quashing.
Only if it gets very very bad will this nation see any real public action to my opinion.

In this regard I would say a nation like canada, or greece or any european nation is superior, I would expect effect. Here...no.

Greece much as I agree and would like to see it.... I think it will not be the actions of its demonstrators but simply the running out of money that changes things there. Complete default. There bonds I think are considered worthless now by rating agencies. Dropping from junk. It's no longer money to back the bonds from the EU..its actually EU money being the bonds,the asset.
WE'll see but I'm not optomistic even there.

GK could probably affirm or deny with more education.

[gregkavarnos]

that country that gave birth to democracy thing...native americans back in the day had democracies,and they considered themselves nations. We're talking 8000 years of history I'd say. So the giving birth thing.....not so sure about that.

Greece has been continuously populated (by humans) since 7000BC. I will also take a stab in the dark and guess that white Americans did not learn about democracy from the American Indians.

Australian Aborigines (who also practiced direct democracy in some of their tribes) have an oral history that spans 60,000+ years (they remember when the island of Tasmania was still joined onto mainland Australia) but the white Australians didn't learn about democracy from them either!

So from whom did the European (and their American and Australian colonial relatives) learn about democracy (within the context of a nation state)? The Ancient Greeks.
From this guy actually:

_2_~1.JPG (8.22 KiB) Viewed 2107 times

Cleisthenes (Greek: Κλεισθένης, also Clisthenes or Kleisthenes) was a noble Athenian of the Alcmaeonid family. He is credited with reforming the constitution of ancient Athens and setting it on a democratic footing in 508/7 BC. For these accomplishments, historians refer to him as "the father of Athenian democracy." He was the maternal grandson of the tyrant Cleisthenes of Sicyon, as the younger son of the latter's daughter Agariste and her husband Megacles. Also, he was credited for increasing power of assembly and he also broke up power of nobility for Athens.

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

Democracy meh.

[Darth Vader voice]: "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed."

Democracy always equals bribery, bribery always equals debt, debt always collapses.

Left, right, doesn't matter - junk it all.

[justsit]

... junk it all.

And do what exactly?

[Karma Dondrup Tashi]

... junk it all.

And do what exactly?

Whatever you like, just as long as the morality you posit doesn't involve mysticism (God) or violence (the state).

Government is merely a tiny minority of people who claim the right to initiate the use of force, a right which is supposedly denied to everybody else.

This is perpetuated through the mechanism of bribery. Bribery requires larger and larger debt to fund itself. Finally, the ponzi scheme becomes too big to sustain itself, and it collapses.

[ronnewmexico]

I agree in principal with KDT...democracies are too easily manipulated. Control the information and you control the democracy...A media controlled lock stock and barrel by the government implies corrruption. A media of corporate interest implies corruption. A higher position of rule of law perhaps and secondary to the democratic componant is one possible alternative

the alternative is rightly the question, but a change in structural componant heirarchy may be the answer.
And america is not a democracy by catagorization but a republic, a democratic republic. Perhpa a real democracy in which everyone votes on everything on say a weekly basis removing the politician and diluting the special interest to a meaningless role would be another reasonable alternative.
There are many alternatives to these democracies that are not democratic.

GK...yes you are ignorant of american history. George Washington for one was very involved with indian issues some in a war context.
The american indian was a very big player in the early history of american under british and then american rule. There is nothing to indicate such a close working relationship did not also involve a exchange of ideas...."I will also take a stab in the dark and guess that white Americans did not learn about democracy from the American Indians."

[gregkavarnos]

GK...yes you are ignorant of american history. George Washington for one was very involved with indian issues some in a war context.
The american indian was a very big player in the early history of american under british and then american rule. There is nothing to indicate such a close working relationship did not also involve a exchange of ideas...."I will also take a stab in the dark and guess that white Americans did not learn about democracy from the American Indians."

And I guess that George Washington and all the Anglo-Irish invaders of America and their offspring did not arrive in America with a preconceived notion of democracy with its roots in 2000 years of European poltical history? Or maybe they were not influenced by the French democratic revolution (and direct French assistance to overthrow British rule)? And I wonder where the French ideals of Democracy came from?

George Washington was a slave owner and military leader, I don't know exactly how much he was influenced by American Indians but he definitely knew how to kill them and steal their land (or let others steal it).

I have great respect for the American Indians and their culture but I think we are playing with ourselves if we believe that white colonist ideas of Democracy were based on their love and intimate knowledge of American Indian culture.

I mean really!

[ronnewmexico]

Sorry no...you're take on early american history is completely wrong. You are filling blanks with ideology.

The fact was the indian in early american history was a political componant.They in fact were a significant player in the french indian british war.
This was not at that time a position of..... we whites exterminate you indians, they were to large a force for that to happen...when american became firmly established and the indian by population dessimated is when that happened..the 1800's.
Prior in the time frame of the american revolution and before... they were a forth power political mover. Inidan, french, british, american were the majority players.

That each did borrow from each other is evidenced in the american historical tale, in many ways formally and informally ,

[gregkavarnos]

We are talking right past each other. I will now stop talking as this conversation has derailed the thread from its original topic. The stage is all yours Ron.

[ronnewmexico]

I think I will make the determination of what I am doing on my part, you are free to make your determinations as you see fit.

Your statement...initial...is debated as it may, and it is on point this subject...greece was not the first democracy.

Here is a link on the french ameican indian warhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_and_Indian_War....George Washington was a very big player in the war and as the name implies indians were very involved in this war on both sides.Thusly he became very familiar with them and the organizations within the indians that determined what tribe or nation supported who. That is fact...we can presume his notions of democracy came as much if not more from this interaction...you misread being not a student of american democracy I assume.

[Malcolm]

I will also take a stab in the dark and guess that white Americans did not learn about democracy from the American Indians.

We didn't learn about from Greeks either (especially since Greek preferred Tyranny to Democracy anyway).

N