Thoughts

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Sherab Dorje
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:30 am

thigle wrote:Last but not least, the only authentic dzogchen-mengagde book, you become public, is this. I don't wanna go from here, without these pointer ;).
Oh dear, another Bonpo with an inferiority complex, what's up with that? Is it a seasonal phenomenon or something?
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muni
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Re: Thoughts

Postby muni » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:44 am

Dzogchen is our nature. Dzogchen is not an easy or an not easy cultivation. What already is, is not to find in created books ABOUT.

ps: Peace isn't created. It is there, only not seen through habitual fixated knowing. Merely watching thoughts from distance can help us all, whatever which religion or practice. They are allowed to evaporate.

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Re: Thoughts

Postby seraphim » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:57 am

One can't even learn Aikido or cooking properly without a teacher, let alone Dzogchen!

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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:47 am

seraphim wrote:One can't even learn Aikido or cooking properly without a teacher, let alone Dzogchen!



Tashi delek,

What about our inner Guru?
What about Dzogchen practice in previous lives ?
What about a high level of understanding and very good karma?

Well some can and some cannot......... :)

But i do agree the most of us cannot realise the inner Guru without the help of the outer Guru.
Also who is searching for the Buddha outside will never find it there

Mutosg Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:52 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
thigle wrote:Last but not least, the only authentic dzogchen-mengagde book, you become public, is this. I don't wanna go from here, without these pointer ;).
Oh dear, another Bonpo with an inferiority complex, what's up with that? Is it a seasonal phenomenon or something?
:namaste:



Tashi delek,

HDOD is indeed one of the best basic books there are, to get in touch with Dzogchen and this has nothing to do with an inferiority complex, but more with an excellent experience.

We also don't call it an inferiority complex if one says the flight of the Garuda is a good basic book regarding Dzogchen explanations.
Well a little preference one can sure have and has not to be equaled with an inferiority, so Greg total non sense, sorry. :D

Mutsog Marro
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

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Sherab Dorje
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:32 am

Dear KY,

I was not referring to you, but recently we had Flow, now Thigle and before them caveman, actually I would say that you are the ONLY bonpopa on this site that DOES NOT have an inferiority complex!
:namaste:
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Arnoud » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:45 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:Dear KY,

I was not referring to you, but recently we had Flow, now Thigle and before them caveman, actually I would say that you are the ONLY bonpopa on this site that DOES NOT have an inferiority complex!
:namaste:


That is because he is Dutch. :smile: And they are too cool for inferiority complexes.

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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:45 pm

thigle wrote:Right, you can only learn dzogchen from a book or text ;).


You cannot learn Dzogchen from a book, nevertheless, there are texts that are authoritative for Dzogchen. But to learn Dzogchne, you need a master.
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:46 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:What about our inner Guru?


That the path, received from outer guru.

What about Dzogchen practice in previous lives ?


Means that in this life it will be easier for you to meet an authentic Dzogchen guru.


What about a high level of understanding and very good karma?


Without transmission, no Dzogchen.


N
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So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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florin
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Re: Thoughts

Postby florin » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:54 pm

for me is not that easy.
I am at "looking and not seeing anything". This is where i am stuck.

what about listening to people ,talking and being involved in activities which require using your memory and concepts?How is that accomplished?How is that integrated?

I find really difficult to understand how to marry "looking back and not seeing anything"with listening or talking for example to somebody where you have to use memory and concepts and then trying to integrate these activities with that where is nothing but space...Obviously the concepts and memory is the clarity aspect.
But how do you integrate this clarity with the "not seeing anything"?
Well ...some would say that they never been separated .But for me they are.
I am at the level where they are separated ,unfortunately :tantrum:

How can you not fall into dualism when talking?
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Re: Thoughts

Postby Karma Dondrup Tashi » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:13 pm

alpha wrote:for me is not that easy.
I am at "looking and not seeing anything". This is where i am stuck.

what about listening to people ,talking and being involved in activities which require using your memory and concepts?How is that accomplished?How is that integrated?

I find really difficult to understand how to marry "looking back and not seeing anything"with listening or talking for example to somebody where you have to use memory and concepts and then trying to integrate these activities with that where is nothing but space...Obviously the concepts and memory is the clarity aspect.
But how do you integrate this clarity with the "not seeing anything"?
Well ...some would say that they never been separated .But for me they are.
I am at the level where they are separated ,unfortunately :tantrum:

How can you not fall into dualism when talking?


You're not alone in this. It isn't easy. But we have it on faith that it's possible to do, even while performing such activities. Don't lose heart.

Many, many short sessions, that's the ticket I think. :jedi:

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Re: Thoughts

Postby Paul » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:57 pm

alpha wrote:for me is not that easy.
I am at "looking and not seeing anything". This is where i am stuck.

what about listening to people ,talking and being involved in activities which require using your memory and concepts?How is that accomplished?How is that integrated?

I find really difficult to understand how to marry "looking back and not seeing anything"with listening or talking for example to somebody where you have to use memory and concepts and then trying to integrate these activities with that where is nothing but space...Obviously the concepts and memory is the clarity aspect.
But how do you integrate this clarity with the "not seeing anything"?
Well ...some would say that they never been separated .But for me they are.
I am at the level where they are separated ,unfortunately :tantrum:

How can you not fall into dualism when talking?


I had a similar, infuriating blockage which lead me to be stuck in the "looking". I got past it by following my teacher's instructions on "letting be" after the initial recognition.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Re: Thoughts

Postby florin » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:43 pm

there is a danger in "looking" because one can objectify "that" and get stuck there .
i think is where i have a problem.

occasionally i get past the looking and i think i have it .its how they describe it in texts but immediately some kind of fear arises in the form of doubt, questioning "is it this" or "am i doing it right" .

it is a constant and repeated fall from grace into samasara.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Re: Thoughts

Postby username » Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:15 am

The First Vajra Theme: Absence
'All things material and their qualities are absent'

I.1. The Disclosure of Absence

4. The Absence of All Concrete Reality

First let me tell you about 'absence',
the absence that is essentially emptiness:
in the super-matrix of pure mind that is like space
whatever appears is absent in reality.

Gnosis itself and everything appearing in its scope is utterly empty, lacking any identity, so with all proliferating projection and elaborating concepts undermined nothing ever comes into existence.

In the nirvana of indeterminate gnosis,
there is no proliferation, no substance or attribute.

http://www.keithdowman.net/dzogchen/old ... he_sun.htm
Dzogchen masters I know say: 1)Buddhist religion essence is Dzogchen 2)Religions are positive by intent/fruit 3)Any method's OK unless: breaking Dzogchen vows, mixed as syncretic (Milanese Soup) 4)Don't join mandalas of opponents of Dalai Lama/Padmasambhava: False Deity inventors by encouraging victims 5)Don't debate Ati with others 6)Don't discuss Ati practices online 7) A master told his old disciple: no one's to discuss his teaching with some others on a former forum nor mention him. Publicity's OK, questions are asked from masters/set teachers in person/email/non-public forums~Best wishes

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Re: Thoughts

Postby Paul » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:35 pm

alpha wrote:there is a danger in "looking" because one can objectify "that" and get stuck there .
i think is where i have a problem.

occasionally i get past the looking and i think i have it .its how they describe it in texts but immediately some kind of fear arises in the form of doubt, questioning "is it this" or "am i doing it right" .

it is a constant and repeated fall from grace into samasara.


I have just been learning to get past that very same thing. I have found that 'letting be in naturalness' is not easy, but it's definitely required for successfully enhancing experience and also overcoming doubt - something I had a real problem with too.

Personally I have been best helped by 100% relying on two teachers and following their advice - unmodified by my own opinions - to the letter. Looking back I can see that I would focus on only part of what I was told, not 100%. Of course recordings and books by your root teacher become invaluable at this point.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell

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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sherab Dorje » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:57 am

username wrote:First let me tell you about 'absence',
the absence that is essentially emptiness:
in the super-matrix of pure mind that is like space
whatever appears is absent in reality.
What in tarnations is a super matrix? Is he translating a Tibetan term here?
matrix-system-failure.jpg
matrix-system-failure.jpg (30.15 KiB) Viewed 1213 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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Re: Thoughts

Postby kalden yungdrung » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:38 am

Namdrol wrote:
thigle wrote:Right, you can only learn dzogchen from a book or text ;).


You cannot learn Dzogchen from a book, nevertheless, there are texts that are authoritative for Dzogchen. But to learn Dzogchne, you need a master.



Tashi delek,

One can sure study some Dzogchen text by heart, by memory. That study is done by the dualistic mind like all study.

But to practice that what was memorised is another case and here is the Master's advice very needed.
This because the practice of the most students is based on their Bagchags and this is a very bad confusing factor in realizing Rigpa.

But i know, that some students cannot afford the money to go to the teachings, Master and so they think that with a high degree of intelligence one could be able to do it all home made. That is very dangerous because of some froozen Bagchags who allways can interfere the meaning of Rigpa.

So i see the practice as connected ALWAYS to the Master, but the memorizing of words and text that can be done easy, if this is not coloured by personal preferences etc.
The advantage of memorizing is that when the Master does explain the practice one can reflect easy on that what has already have been memorized.

Best wishes
KY
THOUGH A MAN BE LEARNED
IF HE DOES NOT APPLY HIS KNOWLEDGE
HE RESEMBLES THE BLIND MAN
WHO WITH A LAMP IN THE HAND CANNOT SEE THE ROAD

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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sönam » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:15 am

gregkavarnos wrote:
username wrote:First let me tell you about 'absence',
the absence that is essentially emptiness:
in the super-matrix of pure mind that is like space
whatever appears is absent in reality.
What in tarnations is a super matrix? Is he translating a Tibetan term here?
matrix-system-failure.jpg


Yes ... ChNN (or his translator), into an introduction to (one's more) Keith Dowman's Old Man Basking in the Sun, used the terminology "... according to the rubric of mind, matrix and secret precept.", and also "the three series of Dzogchen instruction (Mind, Matrix and Secret Precept) ...

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -

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Malcolm
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Re: Thoughts

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:47 pm

gregkavarnos wrote:whatever appears is absent in reality.
What in tarnations is a super matrix? Is he translating a Tibetan term here?
[/quote]

He is translating klong chen i.e. great space.
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Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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Re: Thoughts

Postby Sönam » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:22 pm

Namdrol wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:whatever appears is absent in reality.
What in tarnations is a super matrix? Is he translating a Tibetan term here?


He is translating klong chen i.e. great space.


"... according to the rubric of mind, matrix and secret precept.", and also "the three series of Dzogchen instruction (Mind, Matrix and Secret Precept)

And there it is the "space serie"

Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -


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