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MN 135 - help me clear some things up! - Dhamma Wheel

MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

A forum for members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of the Pali Canon and associated Commentaries, which for discussion purposes are both treated as authoritative.

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dumb bonbu
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MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby dumb bonbu » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:41 am

hi folks, okay so where my understanding is lacking is in verses 13 and 15 -

13. "Here, student, some woman or man is not a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, perfumes, unguents, bed, roof and lighting to monks or brahmans. Due to having performed and completed such kamma, on the dissolution of the body, after death he reappears in a state of deprivation... If instead he comes to the human state, he is poor wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to poverty, that is to say, not to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, perfumes, unguents, bed, roof and lighting to monks and brahmans.
-

15. "Here, student, some woman or man is obdurate and haughty; he does not pay homage to whom he should pay homage, or rise up for whom he should rise up, or give a seat to whom he should give a seat, or make way for whom he should make way, or worship him who should be worshipped, or respect him who should be respected, or revere him who should be revered, or honor him who should be honored. Due to having performed and completed such kammas, on the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a state of deprivation... If instead he comes to the human state, he is low-born wherever he is reborn. This is the way that leads to low birth, that is to say, to be obdurate and haughty, not to pay homage to whom he should pay homage, nor rise up for..., nor give a seat to..., nor make way for..., nor worship..., nor respect..., nor revere..., nor honor him who should be honored.

so with regards v13 i understand Buddha is referring to the virtue of dana, and that it is taught that of the greatest virtue is giving to the Sangha. what i don't understand is say someone cultivates dana by supporting the needy, the poor, by helping them...but has no opportunity or does not come into contact with the Sangha and Dharma in this lifetime. will they be reborn into poverty themselves despite cultivation of dana in this way?

regards v15 - what is meant by high and low birth in the human realm? is the Buddha referring to the caste system? because i thought he rejected it?

many thanks in advance
Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding.

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cooran
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby cooran » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:02 am

Hello db, all,

MN 135 The Culakammavibhanga Sutta is The Shorter Exposition of Action. In this Sutta, the Buddha explains how kamma accounts for the fortune and misfortune of beings.
Kamma is intentional choice/action. It isn't the case that these people didn't happen to come across the Sangha, and couldn't give Dana.
It means they intentionally chose to withhold Dana from the Sangha, were miserly.

High means being born into a comfortable well-off and respected family. Low means not having such a fortunate rebirth.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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dumb bonbu
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby dumb bonbu » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:10 am

hi Chris thankyou for your clarification, most helpful. so being intentionally miserly is the thing to consider in the context of verse 13. but are there suttas where the Buddha speaks of dana in the sense of helping those less fortunate than ourselves? or is cultivation of dana more often than not, spoken of in terms of supporting the Sangha (i don't want to sound like i'm down on supporting this Gem by the way, i realise the importance in doing so)? thankyou
Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding.

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cooran
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby cooran » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:52 am

Hello db,

These essays may be of assistance:
Dana -The Practice of Giving Selected essays edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el367.html

A couple of weeks ago, there was a discussion with Bhante Dhammasiha at my local monestary, about 'Giving' and there was mention of 'merit' and thinking over (recollecting) the gifts and donations one has made. I recalled that for some years, I have been having some deductions made monthly from my bank account for various charities here and overseas - but that I never think about it. Apparently it is perfectly okay in Buddhism to recall the good things one has done, and to let others know - as a matter of fact, it seems to be recommended - so that they can also rejoice in your merit. It is a little difficult for me to do this - having been brought up to downplay any achievements or donations. It was suggested that I read over my bank statement, and that whenever I receive the newsletters from the Agencies I donate to, to allow myself to read the good things they are doing and feel delight at realising that my donation was helping these things to happen.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

Element

Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby Element » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:37 am


Element

Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby Element » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:40 am

This sutta is just encouraging the well to do to do good. Buddha would not have taught the poor and destitute the same teaching.

This sutta is merely one teaching given to a Brahmin student. It is improved Brahminism taught to a Brahmin.

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cooran
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby cooran » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:55 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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cooran
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby cooran » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:01 am

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby Annapurna » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:37 am

Last edited by Annapurna on Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

Element

Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby Element » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:42 am

Last edited by Element on Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:52 am, edited 3 times in total.

Element

Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby Element » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:43 am


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cooran
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby cooran » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:00 am

Hello Element,

I'm not particularly interested in your idiosyncratic beliefs or history of donation. I would think that all of us here give to many charities, welfare, and buddhist organisations - by salary deduction or individual donation.

This is the Classical forum and my understanding is that it is for those interested in explaining and discussing the Buddha's Teachings in the way they have been handed down within the Tradition over the last two and a half millenia.

One hopes this sub-forum can continue and be treated with respect without yet another thread being transferred to the Modern forum.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Ben
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby Ben » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:50 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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dumb bonbu
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby dumb bonbu » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:18 pm

hi Chris, thankyou for the essays.... it should be a quiet nightshift tonight so i'm sure i'll have the chance to read them then

Annabel, thankyou for your perspective...highlighting both verses and casting them in another understanding for me is most helpful!

Element, interesting points...perhaps we could raise a thread in the Dhamma free-for-all? (does anyone else think that forum name makes it sound like some Ultimate Wrestling Tournament for Buddhists, or is it just me?)
Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding.

elaine
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby elaine » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:16 am


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Dhammanando
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby Dhammanando » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:03 am


elaine
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby elaine » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:50 am

Hello Bhante, all,

Sorry for the mis-remembered quotes.

Let's say if we have a scenario like this - if someone has only 1 can of soup to give and s/he chose to give it to a genuinely poor person with children who can't find work in a foreign country, than giving it to a temple. Will the "merit" that the giver get be any less than if he were to give to the temple? How do we "measure" the merits from the act of giving? Is there a right or wrong way to give, or the right or wrong place to give?

Do we have to investigate whether the temple is preaching the right Dhamma before giving? If the temple is preaching all the wrong stuffs and we didn't know and we donated, would it count "against" us for supporting the wrong things?

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gavesako
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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby gavesako » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:52 pm

In Buddhism it is said that if one throws dish-washing water into a pool where there are insects and living creatures, intending that they feed on the tiny particles of food thus washed away, one accumulates merit even by such trivial generosity -- see A. I, 161.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:29 pm

- Peter


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Re: MN 135 - help me clear some things up!

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:56 pm

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